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Archive through September 22, 2003

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Rise pp. 272,


change that to Rose, pp. 272

Hi Randip Singh,

Interesting point! But seriously Rajputs are not a race/tribe or ethnicity,and frankly ,neither are Jats.
Rise pp. 272,

"Sir Denzil Ibbetson might well,as he thought,have gone further and said that atribe of any caste whatever,which had in ancient times or even in comparatively modern times possessed supreme power throughout any fairly extensive tract of country would be classed as Rajput.It seemed to him almost certain that some of the so-called Rajput families were aboriginal,and he instanced the Chandel..."

etc. etc.

R.S.,I will be away for a few days after tomorrow.-- just South of the border from where Sunny lives!

Hi Facts,

I have one question that has always puzzled me...........Scythians were divided into Royal Scythian and Ploughing Scythian.............could it be that Royal Scythian descendents are Rajput and the ploughing Scythian descendents are Jats?

Jats are not Aryans.

I am a freigner I am going to divide and rule India. Any one who is light-skinned will be made to resemble a Chinese any one dark a Negro. the Jats are light-skinned so we will start a rumour that Jats have slanted eyes like Chinese. This is the game which we play but I must admit we have not succeeeded in India. India is too pure and undivided it is tough but we are determined and wil succeed.

who the hell is tony............is that sunny??

Tony,

In reality we originated in Aryavarta we the Aryan Jats.

Sunny,

I see when reason fails you revert to ad hominem attacks.

Marquet says Ephthalites are Altics.So how could they be Jats?

You are a snake with a forked tongue,my friend;ask anyone from Randip Singh to Pal Singh.That's also why you got expelled from one of the sikh sites..
Even your own people consider you an outcaste....Remember you asked for this.


Best Wishes,

Hi Fact, quit flattering yourself. Read Marquart and tell me why you have a strange knack for dishonesty?

Sunny,

I think you should read Marquet agian.

Remember,if it hadn't been for me,you woudn't even know scholars like Enoki,Marquet,Stein,Vogelsang existed!-- would still be spewing 18th Century quotes from Tod .

Anyhow,tell me more about your Rajput brothers.Very 'Indianish' these people.

Hi Facts,

Take the time to honestly read Marquart. Best Wishes,

Sunny,

What's your take on the following ? As per Rose,the artifical separation of Rajputs between Solar,Luna and Agnicula has no basis in truth.Indeed the Mount Abu story is just that,a myth.--never happened.

pp. 298-299

"To describe the various theories regarding the origins of the Rajput would be in itself a very heavy task,and it is impossible to say what value should be attached to the attempts made to explain the legends which make some of them Solar,others Lunar and others again Agnikula.The origin of this last term is variously described.According to the Rajput bards the chauhan is one of the four Agnikula or 'fire-sprung' tribes who were created by the gods in the anali kund of 'fountain of fire' on Mount Abu to fight against the asuras or demons.But,as Cunningham pointed out,this claim must be of comparatively modern date as the common gotra-charya of all the Chauhan tribes declares them to be of the Bats or Bach gotra and Fell's inscription of Jai Chand of Kanauj records a grant made as late as 1177AD to a Kshastriya,said to be of the Vatsa gotra with the five pravars of Bhargava,Jamadagnya,etc.From this document then we learn that the Chauhans laid NO claim to be sprung from fire,but were content to be regarded as descendants of the sage Bhrigu through Jamdagnya Vatsa.Similarly none of the numerous inscriptinos of the Chalukya or Solanki family alludes to this fable of their origin.The first appearance of the 'fire-pit' legend is in Chand's Prithviraj-raisa which claims to be contemporary with its hero who was killed in 1193AD(J.R.A.S. 1909,p.247)"

Digvijay Singh,

'Tony' hits the right cord.You've got a sense of humor,.....I tell ya,I'm laughing right now.

You can't be all that bad, buddy.

Tony you are missing the point, we Jats are of Aryan stock from the original home of Aryans Aryavarta.

Sunny,

You're missing the point of my last post.Let me be blunt.

.I'm saying Academic Credentials are everything,but your 'Silk route Foundation' seems to have none.!--hence the general,hollow statements.

Best,

Hi Facts,

----Around 440 the Hephthalites further took Sogdian (Samarkand) and then Balkh and Bactria----

“Maybe,they are speaking generally.”

Keep plugging away. Regards,

Sunny,

This is what your Silk route foundation says regarding Hephthalite origins:

"The PAUCITY of record in Hephthalites or Ephthalites provides us fragmentary picture of their civilization and empire. Their background is UNCERTAIN."

So how can you say for sure they were Jats?..Also ,where are the 'great many artifacts' you were alluding to?-- 'The paucity of record..'

Further,nowhere does this 'foundation' deny Sassanians defeated Ephthalites in 427AD. The link does however make the following claim,which I found to be weird :


"Around 440 the Hephthalites further took Sogdian (Samarkand) and then Balkh and Bactria." (??)--

Maybe,they are speaking generally. Who knows.If you read Enoki,McGovern,Marquet,Stein, etc. all say Bactria fell to Ephthalites in 425AD.


P.S. Who created this web-page?.Don't be deceieved by the word 'foundation',it might be the product of a novice .In short,examine the academic credentials of the individual/or individuals behind this 'foundation'.

S, That's a start!.. Now I'm going to scrutinize it and get back to you.... Simple as that.


Don't be afraid.

Hi Facts,

http://ww-w.silk-road.com/artl/heph.shtml

Regards,

Sunny,

Experience shows me that when people are vague and afraid to even fully disclose the content of their sources,they are propounding Micky-Mouse history.

Regarding your obscure 'Silk Route Organization'.You make a claim,now support it--

.Show us their timeline .How does it differ from mainstream scholarship?Do they actually negate the 427AD Sassanian defeat of the Ephthalites!?

.What are the credentials of the folks mantaining this link?


Now on the other hand,people with a real history are not fearful and evasive .M&W for example always fully supports all his claims .

Hi Facts, contact the organization. They will help you. Regards,

Sunny,Mumbo-Jumbo debunking time:


"Hi Facts, thanks for the reference on Enoki – I am inclined to believe the timeline provided by the Silk-route organization on Ephthalites – "

First of all,who formulated the 'silk route organization ' timeline?.Show us their timeline.If you believe this timeline,what do yo need Enoki for?,he contradicts it!


"I think they have a great many artifacts to support their claims. "

Of these 'great many artifacts', which one in particular helps negate the Sassanid defeat of Ephthalites in 427AD.?

Mickey-Mouse.

Tony,

we Jats are pure Aryans and Aryavarta is the original home of the Aryan Race.

Sunny,

The Sassanian defeat of Ephthalites in 427AD is a very well documented fact.--Enoki,Mcgovern,Olaf,Marquet,Stein, et al.

You can believe what you want in the end ,but please don't repeat your last post in the company of serious intellectuals,for your own sake.

Take Care,....Why do you always operate on the fringes?

Hi Facts, thanks for the reference on Enoki – I am inclined to believe the timeline provided by the Silk-route organization on Ephthalites – I think they have a great many artifacts to support their claims.

Best Wishes,

I've realized that peopel who are afraid to discuss their historical claims in detail (a)have something to hide (b) don't know what they are talking about!

Hey Sunny,

Following is the chronology of Hephthalite history.--by Enoki and McGovern.

--Do you still deny Sassanians gave Hephthalites an ass kicking in 427B.C.? Do you still refuse to believe Hephthalites were in firm control of Bactria by 425BC?... You're a Micky-mouse,man.

http://spotlightongames.com/variant/maharaja/eph.html

Appendix A: Approximate Timeline. [Enoki, McGovern]


420-427 Ephthalites raid Persia as far west as modern Tehran.
427 Ephthalites suffer overwhelming defeat in Persia.
437 Chinese embassy to Tokharistan (area around Balkh) and Gandhara finds no sign of Ephthalites.
454 Ephthalites revenge earlier loss to Sassanid Persians.
456 Ephthalites send their first embassy to the Chinese.
457 Firuz (Peroz), former king of Persia, requests Ephthalite assistance.
459 Firuz regains Persian throne with help of Ephthalite armies.
464-475 Wars between the former allies resolved with Persian tribute in 475.
465-470 Ephthalites conquer Gandhara, set up a Tegin (a viceroy).
470-480 War between Tegin of Gandhara and Gupta Empire of India.
473-479 Ephthalites conquer Sogdiana, driving the Kidarites westwards. Next conquering Khotan and Kashgar (in the Tarim Basin).
480-500 Gupta empire collapses. Tegin is overlord of North & Central India.
484 Firuz initiates new war against the Ephthalites which fails miserably.
486 Firuz' heir Kubad takes refuge with Ephthalites following a coup.
488 Kubad regains the throne with Ephthalite assistance.
493-508 Ephthalites extend power as far as Zungaria, then Turfan and Karashar (in modern China).
497 Kubad deposed and escapes to a second refuge with the Ephthalites.
500 Ephthalites place Kubad on Sassanid throne a second time (dies 531).
503-513 Kubad makes war on the Ephthalites. Peace in 513 lasts.
522 Apex of Ephthalite power. Chief of the Juan-Juan nomads flees to the Ephthalites for protection. Ephthalites dominate north and south of the Tien Shan range. Control as far as Tieh-lo in the south, Ci`ih-le^ (Kao-ch`e^) in the north, at least to Khotan in the east probably more, and up to Persia in the west. A separate Ephthalite Empire controls much of India. Forty countries (including Sassanid Persia) are in tribute. Ephthalite centers are at Ghur, Balkh, Warwaliz (north of today's Kunduz near the source of the Oxus) and Hsi-mo-ta-lo. The entire empire probably comprises fifty to sixty thousand individuals.
531 Chosroes succeeds his father Kubad in Persia.
532 Revolts in India; Ephthalites lose most of East & Central India.
532-542 Fleeing ruler conquers the Kashmir for a short reign.
552 Turks overthrow Avars and begin petty conflicts with Ephthalites.
c. 565 Turks and Chosroes (Khusrau) of Persia ally to capture and divide Ephthalite empire.
c. 570 Ephthalite rule overthrown in India.


Appendix B: Bibliography.
· Enoki, Kazuo, Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko, 1955, No. 18, "On the Nationality of the Ephthalites"
· Hambly, Gavin, Central Asia, 1966, Chapter 3: "Sassanians and Turks in Central Asia"
· McGovern, William, The Early Empires of Central Asia, 1939, Chap. 18: "The Huns in Persia and India," pp. 399-419, and notes, pp. 454-457.

Also read this,controversy on the Hephthalite origins:

http://depts.washington.edu/uwch/silkroad/exhibit/hephthalites/essay.html

INDIA IS ARYAVARTA.

Chauhans are Rajputs not Jats. Both the Rajputs and Jats are pure Aryans.

Gross:

http://pub49.ezboard.com/fjattincboard30296frm1.showMessage?topicID=81.topic

Mehton/Rajput history

The true history of Rajputs/Mehtoo/Mehton as they are called is as follows:

The Rajputs of Doaba (known as Mehton) claim to be of Pritvi Raj Chahaun's clan but are not. They are situated mainly in the villages around the Nehr (canal) near Adhumpur, Jullunder, district in Doaba of Indian Punjab. Villages Include: Panchta, Naroor, Binjo, Mayo-Patti, Tadore, Drolly, Dimonda, Kalra, Poongernee, Sunera, Gujjrattan, Kenora, Bagaana, Paldi, Fuglana, and Ladowal (inside Jullunder city). Their surnames include: Parmar, Parhar, Minhas, Jaswal, Soraya, and also includes some Bhattis. They only marry amongst each other, so it is common to have someone whose mom and dad's name is Parmar and whose sister is also marrying a parmar. The Mehton form a belt of villages in Doaba….
Mehtons were founded by a guy who had a child with his own mother. How they got the name Mehton was, from: Ma-to (from mother - meaning a child was born from his him and his mother). As sick as that seems, its true, they were formed on the basis of incest. The named evolved to Mehton much later and recently they have been making claims that they are rajputs from Pritvi Raj Chahaun's clan. The Chahauns in Punjab are all jatt incidentally (ie. Dr. Jagjit Singh Chahaun). The major reason why most in punjab don't question the mehton for calling themselves rajputs is because they only exist in less then 20 villages in the doaba area near the Adhumpur nehr (canal). My own village is about 1/2 Mehton. I have verfied what I have posted above from mehtons that I know. Anyone from their villages or around that area will tell you the same history.