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jat history - 2

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Sunny,

It seems you have trouble comprehending English!!

Victor Mair only says,"..which opens up DISTANT lexical similarities with the Goths .." Do you know what a DISTANT lexical similarity is?.It's NOT racial similarity.It does not imply racial connection. Nowhere does Mair say that Goths are RACIALLY similar to Getae.At a latter time,I will teach you why there might be lexical similarities between the words Goth and Getae.

Sunny,,Western scholarship generally rejects yours and Dhillon's thesis .Following is the consensus opinion.:
http://12.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GE/GETAE.htm

“The view that the Getae were identical with the Goths is NOT generally accepted.”


But regarding Brahmin and Celtic common racial heritage, there is NO ambuigity involved.The following is from the Celtic database library.It's straightforlward confirmation by Celts that they are Vedic Aryans.Read the whole link:


http://www.users.bigpond.com/troy-kim/celts.html


"The Celts eruption into the west came at much the same time as a similar migration into India and Persia. It is thought that the Celts and the Hindus shared a common ancestry ...; the language spoken by the Celts came from the same source as Sanskrit, the classical language of the Hindus. Thus the Celtic language is called Indo-European.


The other two branches of Celtic language are: Q-Celtic (Gaelic) spoken today in Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man; and P-Celtic (Brythonic, also called British) spoken in Wales, Cornwall and Brittany. Their descendants live on today, and it is these similarities which matter most when trying to define 'Celtic'....."

And here's the clincher;
http://members.tripod.com/~tanmoy/bengal/races.html

"...After a detailed scientific analysis, the experts concluded that the "genetic distance" between Brahmins and Europeans was smaller as compared to the distance between Kshatriyas and Europeans. "

Regards,

P.S. Sunny regarding Pathans you are twisting my words agasin.I was alluding to Hitler's words who said that even if a had 10% Jewish blood,he was to be considered Jewish.I'm sure that Pathans have more that 10% Jewish blood in general.By the way,I'm not a fan of Hitler.

The Jats are the purest of Aryans and all of Aryavarta belongs to Bharat. Except for a few all the wrestling team of Indian for the Asian Games were the Jats. The world Junior Superheavy Champion P.S. Cheema did a great job:http://busanasiangames.org/Eng/

Hi Fact, I recall you saying that if the Pathans are “10% Jew” they are Jews – I am curious how you come to that conclusion?

It is quite interesting how you play the game! Nonetheless, it does not work with intelligent people! Regards,

Hi Facts, quit evading the issue you Pathan’s ashna:

You said, “The view that the Getae were identical with the Goths is NOT generally accepted.”

James P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair, wrote:

Da (Greater) Yuezhi or in the earlier pronunciation d’ad-ngiwat-tieg has been seen to equate with the Massagetae who occupied the oases and steppelands of West Central Asia in the time of Herodotus; here Massa renders an Iranian word for “Great”, hence “Great Getae” (alternately, Massagetae as been divided as mah “great” + saka-ta “Saka”, i.e. “Great Saka”). Others have seen in this word an attempt to capture in Chinese the name of a tribe that is rendered in Greek as the Iatioi who are recorded in Ptolemy’s geography. The original pronunciation has been reconstructed as gwat-ti or got-ti or gut-si, which opens up distant lexical similarities with the Goths (the German tribes of northern and eastern Europe), the Getae (the Dacian, i.e. Balkan, tribes northwest of the Black Sea), the Guti (a people on the borderlands of Mesopotamia), the Kusha (our Kushans), the Gushi (a people mentioned in Han texts and regarded as brigands along with the peoples of Kroran), or a combination of some but not all of the above.

What would compel the “world’s greatest” (according to you) to write this above statement?

Also, no one cares about Celtic Druids or Bahmans – that is the only thing you have in common! Best wishes,

Hi Facts, quit evading the issue you Pathan’s ashna:

You said, “The view that the Getae were identical with the Goths is NOT generally accepted.”

James P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair, wrote:

Da (Greater) Yuezhi or in the earlier pronunciation d’ad-ngiwat-tieg has been seen to equate with the Massagetae who occupied the oases and steppelands of West Central Asia in the time of Herodotus; here Massa renders an Iranian word for “Great”, hence “Great Getae” (alternately, Massagetae as been divided as mah “great” + saka-ta “Saka”, i.e. “Great Saka”). Others have seen in this word an attempt to capture in Chinese the name of a tribe that is rendered in Greek as the Iatioi who are recorded in Ptolemy’s geography. The original pronunciation has been reconstructed as gwat-ti or got-ti or gut-si, which opens up distant lexical similarities with the Goths (the German tribes of northern and eastern Europe), the Getae (the Dacian, i.e. Balkan, tribes northwest of the Black Sea), the Guti (a people on the borderlands of Mesopotamia), the Kusha (our Kushans), the Gushi (a people mentioned in Han texts and regarded as brigands along with the peoples of Kroran), or a combination of some but not all of the above.

What would compel the “world’s greatest” (according to you) to write this above statement?

Also, no one cares about Celtic Druids or Bahmans – that is the only thing you have in common! Best wishes,

Sunny,

Rather you are evading the issue.Read this again.

http://12.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GE/GETAE.htm

“The view that the Getae were identical with the Goths is NOT generally accepted.”

Like I told you before,watch Tolkhein's epic movie.It is the story of two Brahmins (Celtic Druids) ,'The Twin Towers' who change the course of human history.One good and the other bad!Check the Celtic Encyclopaedia to read the history of the Vedic Aryans /Celts.Also read Mallory and Mair.

P.S. I think you should stick with your Jewish friends,the Pathans.You share many traits with them.

Best Wishes,

Hi Dumbo(Facts), you are not answering my question, let me help you:

Hugh Trevaskis wrote in The Land of the Five Rivers in 1928 [26], “But the great mass of the tribes who took more readily to agriculture were called Jats, a name which may possibly be identified with the Latin Getae or Goths.”

Joseph Davey Cunningham [29] wrote in his famous book A History of Sikhs in 1849:

“The plains of Upper India, in which the Brahmans and Kshattriyas had developed a peculiar civilization, have been overrun by Persian or Scythic tribes, from the age of Darius and Alexander to that of Babar and Nadir Shah. Particular traces of successive conquerors may yet perhaps be found, but the main features are: 1) the introduction of the Muhammadan creed; and 2) the long antecedent emigration of hordes of Jats from the plains of Upper Asia. It is not necessary to enter into the antiquities of Grecian Getae and Chinese YueChi, to discuss the asserted identity of the peasant Jat…or try to trace the blood of Kadphises in the veins of Ranjit Singh.”

Satya Shrava [34], in his 1981 work Sakas in India, said, “The Jats are no other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe...a fact now well-known.”

Arnold Toynbee’s statement in his book A Study of History [31]:

It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribes as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab.

Kliger [47] reads, “Under “Geatar” we find the simple definition: “Jutae, Getae, Gothes.”, he then [47] cites William Camden who says, “These Iutae, who had that name (as many think) from the Gutes, Getes, or Gothes (for in a manuscript booke, we read Geatun) did for certaine inhabite the upper part of Cimbica Chersonesus, which still the Danes call Iuitland.” Further Kliger [47] cites the 1670 work De Anglorun Gentis Origine Disceptatio, “Those people are called Gutae in the laws of Edward the Confessor, and Geatuni in the Annales Petroburgenses; by others they are called Jotuni and Jetae; by the Danish writers, Jutae and Juitae; for these are one and the same name: Getae and Giotae, and Gutae, and Geatuni, and Jotuni, and Jetae, and Jutae, and Juitae.”

Sunny,

I have already addressed the 'Getae' question a hundred times before.Why are you slow of mind?

For instance,

Britannica says,"Some authors consider that the Yue-Chi are the same as the Getae and that the original form of the name was Yüt or Get, which is also supposed to appear in the Indian Jât".(Yue-Chi being a sub- group of Ephthalites according to this theory)

But other Western authorities identify them with the Slavs:


http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/thrac/articles/n_miteva.htm

". The identity between "Getae" and "Slavs" is almost certain, and in the invasion of 530 he differentiated well the "Getae" from the Bulgarians. Identity between "Getae" and Slavs is also found in Theophylactus Simocatta. [8] "

Who is correct?Your guess is as good as mine.

In any case, Getae is NOT same as Goth according to most if not all scholars.Goths were Scandanavians,Getae were Central Asians.Two different people altogether.Encyclopaedia Britannica on another link says this ;


http://12.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GE/GETAE.htm

“The view that the Getae were identical with the Goths is NOT generally accepted.”


Watch Tolkhein's 'Twin Towers' in a theatre near you.It's epic Gothic mythology .Incidently,this movie is set in the past and a mighty 10 000 men army was fielded at the conclusion.Back then Sunny,10 000 men was a very big deal!


Further Jordaines himself says this about the Ephthalites.

Jordaines:

"..XXIV (121) But after a short space of time, as Orosius relates, the race of the Huns, fiercer than ferocity itself, flamed forth against the Goths. We learn from old traditions that their origin was as follows: Filimer, king of the Goths, son of Gadaric the Great, who was the fifth in succession to hold the rule of the Getae after their departure from the island of Scandza,--and who, as we have said, entered the land of Scythia with his tribe,--found among his people certain witches, whom he called in his native tongue Haliurunnae. Suspecting these women, he expelled them from the midst of his race and compelled them to wander in solitary exile afar from his army. (122) There the unclean spirits, who beheld them as they wandered through the wilderness, bestowed their embraces upon them and begat this savage race, which dwelt at first in the swamps,--a stunted, foul and puny tribe, scarcely human, and having no language save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech. Such was the descent of the Huns who came to the country of the Goths."


XXX:As usual,you are not making any sense.

Hi Kheer Khane,

You are still talking through your hat! I thought Bahmans were an intelligent people who kept their own brother and sisters or native people down for centuries through their mumo- jumbo!

Best wishes.

Hi Facts, you have not addressed the Getic origin of the modern Jat. Best Wishes,

One more thing Dumbos.

Encyclopaedia Brit. adapts the opinion of Stein and a few other Western scholars when it says Ephthalites are ‘Turkik’.
To be fair however,the whole issue of Ephthalite racial origin is very murky;there are many different schools of thought,each insisting on a different racial origin for the Ephthalite.For instance ,J. Marquart and many others identifies them with Mongols.Then there is a whole school led by Enoki trying to show that Ephthalites are Iranians.And so on.

Therefore I am speaking generally ,throwing reason to the wind somewhat,when I say that some Jats are probably Ephthalites . To have said that some Jats have Ephthalite genes would have been a more fortunate choice of words,honsetly speaking.In the end however, it really doesn’t matter if we cannot identify the Ephthalite racially,because the Jats themselves harboure DNA from a variety of races of different origin,even before the Ephthalite made their donation,so to speak..Bluntly,an injection of DNA from one more obscure tribe like the Ephthalite into the Jat won’t skew the overall picture much.In fact,it can be seen as just another blimp in the grand scheme of things.In point of fact,it was the Arab(Hamite) who contributed most generously to the DNA of the Jat through pillage,wholesale rape and plunder;for over eight hundred years!.The rest is just gravy.

Let’s wait for full scale genetic testing to be conducted on the Punjabi Jat.It will clear all the missing pieces.My hunch —alot of Arabic and Dravadian blood in the Punjabi Jat,with an infusion of Turkik(Ephthalite!?)blood..

Regards,

Sunny,

ref. your comment:

"First they were Dravidians, next Turks, next Aryans, next Hepthalites, now Yuezhi – I guess close enough"

Do you know why I call you 'Dumbo' Sunny?--Because you can't read simple English..I have mantained all along that Jats are a mixed race,with a strong Dravadian-Turkik strain.Cunningham and bingley also agree that the are a mixed race.Would you like quotes?They can be expeditiously furnished!

Just yesterday I said the following ,yet you still don't understand.Ye slow-witted soul;

"SOME ,not all original Jats were probably Ephthalites,as I have already stated numerous times in the past.Jats of today are a fusion of many different races of people.Just look at the diverse physical types found in the 'Jat race' ..."


What is it about the above statement that you don't understand?Except that it is the painful truth.


I mean you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that Maharaja Ranjit Singh ,Nitin Dahiya,Charan Singh,Harry Lalli etc. are blacker than Gursdas Mann who himself is blacker than Hans Raj Hans and so forth.

Regards.

P.S. Sunny,remember I have nothing against you or XXX.

Hi Facts, it appears all along you have been the “Dumbo”, how many times have you changed your thesis against Jats?

First they were Dravidians, next Turks, next Aryans, next Hepthalites, now Yuezhi – I guess close enough.

Rest assured, just like Quanango – you must swallow the truth, sooner or later. Best Wishes,

Hi Bahman Boy,

I have told you many times that leave the great Jat warriors-- with colorful history of 2500 years-- alone. It would be extemely beneficial for you to continue to look after your ringing of bells, deformed women and animals,etc.!

One more thing--Colud you please share the technology with us--- the one made your monkeys fly and construct bridges across two nations!

Please also us educate about your Aryvarta nonesense. Is this the one when deformed feamales riding on those little donkeys cleared the Central Asia from the Great Massagetae or your Jat Zajmans!


Best wishes.

Our great Jat BJP leader Sahib Singh Verma also is convinced that the Aryan Jats originated in Aryavarta.

Mr. so-called 'Satpal Verma' the Jat,

Please stop using Brahmin clan names.Use your own if you have any!You guys already have borrowed enough clan names from Rajputs and others, as it is.

Also,support all your claims with evidences.Gapp-shap talk is very cheap.

We Jats have never mixed. If there is a very dark Jat (which is extremely rare) there is also a very dark German. There are reasons for this. Most Jats range from brown to white colour and we Jats originated in Aryavarta. We are the purest of the purest.

So here's a fair assesment of the whole Jat origin enigma:

.SOME ,not all original Jats were probably Ephthalites,as I have already stated numerous times in the past.Jats of today are a fusion of many different races of people.Just look at the diverse physical types found in the 'Jat race' --Nitin Dahiya(a black Jat) on one end of the spectrum and Hans Raj Hans(a fair Jat) on the other end.Not to forget the in-between colors.


.According to most if not all Western scholars 'Sakas' are different from the 'Ephthalites'. In any case ,scholars agree that these tribes entered India's history only after 130B.C.

.Jordaines clearly separates his people the Goths racially from the Ephthalites in his famous treatise.(He delivers a very unflattering discription of the physical features of Ephthalites in his 'History of Goths'.)Western scholars generally agree.

.Most Western scholars confirm that Goths are a different race from Getae.

.NO Western or non-Jat scholar says that Maurya Empire was either Jats or Sakas or Ephthalites or the like.The timeline problem is one of MANY insurmountable hurdles..

.No Western or non-Jat scholar says that King Porus and his legions was a Jat.Again timeline problem one of numerous roadblocks.

.No Western or non-Jat scholar says that Guptas were Jats.All western scholars agree that they were Brahmins for very obvious reasons.

Apart from this,the Jats have a great and colourful history.

Good Luck,

.

By the way,I forgot this quote:

"This may, however, be due to the fact that their contact with civilization was so short; the Yue-Chi ‘and Turks had had some commerce with more advanced races before they played any part in political history, but the Ephthalites appear as raw barbarians, and were annihilated as a nation in little more than a hundred years. "

Regards,

Sunny,

The Yue-Chi and Ephthalites are a Turkish race, according to Encyclopaedia Britanica;just as I have always mantained.Britannica also draws a clear distinction between Sakas and Yue-Chi but seems to draw parallels between Yue-Chi - Kushans-Ephthalites who are generically called Indo-Scytnians.(As a side note,many scholars have noted that the Kushans were infact a mixed oriental-turkik race).
In any case,all these tribes,including the Sakas, came into the Indian scene only after 130B.C. Also notice what is said about fraternal polyandry and Jats .

I have furnished the main quotes from Encyclopaedia below:


http://86.1911encyclopedia.org/Y/YU/YUE_CHI.htm

YUE-CHI (or YuEH-CHIH),

.the Chinese name of a central Asiatic tribe who ruled in Bactria and India, are also known as Kushans (from one of their subdivisions) and Indo-Scythians.

.The date of these events is placed between 175 and 140 n.e.

.The Yue-Chi then occupied Bactria, and little is heard of them for a hundred years.

.The chronology of this invasion and of the history of the Kushans in India must be regarded as uncertain.

.In any case the invasion of the Yue-Chi cannot have been very long before or very long after the Christian era.

.Nothing whatever is known of their original language.

Physical Typenote the thick lips!)

.The physical type represented on these coins has a strong prominent nose, large eyes, a moderately abundant beard and somewhat thick or projecting lips. Hence, as far as any physical characters can be formulated for the various tribes (and their validity is very doubtful) the Yue-Chi type is Turkish rather than Mongol or Ugro-Finnic.
In such points of temperament as military ability and power of assimilating Indian and Persian civilization, the YueChi also resemble the Turks, and some authorities think that the name Turushka or Ttirukha sometimes applied to them by Indian writerf is another evidsnce of the connexion.


.The Yue-Chi and Turks, however, may both represent parallel developments of similar or even originally identical tribes.

.Some authors consider that the Yue-Chi are the same as the Getae and that the original form of the name was Yüt or Get, which is also supposed to appear in the Indian Jât.(Note Getae is NOT same as Goth please)


http://89.1911encyclopedia.org/E/EP/EPHTHALITES.htm

.Our earliest information about the Ephthalites comes from the Chinese chronicles, in which it is stated that they were originally a tribe of the great Yue-Chi..

.Before the 5th century A.D. they began to move westwards, for about 420 we find them in Transoxiana, and for the next 130 years they were a menace to Persia, which they continually and successfully invaded, though they never held it as a conquest.

Polyandry:


.it is noticeable that polyandry is a recognized institution among many Himalayan tribes, and is also said to be practised secretly by the Jats and other races of the plains.

End of quotes.

Best Wishes

Chandrapta Maurya was a Kshatriya.

The Persian were our neighbours. The border in ancient times was not well-defined. As such during the period of Chandragupta Maurya all of Eastern Iran belonged to India. The Jats originated in Aryavarta.

Sunny and XXX;

Sunny first,regarding your last post:


All I am saying is that reputable scholars like Tarn are now casting doubt as to whether there ever was a 'Scythian wave' in India.You conveniently forget that I started off my post by clearly stating that scholars generally still think 'Sakas'(whome you wrongly claim are Jats) entered India around 130B.C.


XXX:

I have said many times that according to Western scholars,there are only THREE viable theories for the origins of Chandragupta Maurya;none of them include the Jats.

(1)He was from the Mor Poshak peacock tanner caste, as per Mccrindle.

(2)He was a Persian as per Prof.'s Spooner and Buria..Persians/Iranians are a sub-division of the Indo-Aryans.They are the same race as the Brahmins.Refer to any Iranian history site.

(3)He was a product of a concubine called 'Maurya' and a Nanda prince.

Please learn to read and not jump to conclusions.That's why I call you folks Dumbo(s).

Regards,

You can not create a rift between the Indians and Persians, we have been neighbours. Persia during the period of the shah often looked upon India as their brother civilization. Both have similar ancient religions and precise ancient common language.

how can there have been invasions in Aryavarta as most of Central asia was Aryavarta and Kashmir which is Central Asia is to this day Central Asia. The Aryan race originated in Aryavarta.

Hi kheer Khane,

Here is what you wrote on another page concerning Chander Gupta Maurya:


"Here is some evidence suggesting that Chandragupta Maurya was a Persian Aryan:


Prof. Spooner who evacuated Pataliputra was struck by his findings and writes in his article "The Zoroastrian Period of Indian History" as follows:

"For Chandragupta' s times, the evidences are more numerous and more detailed, and indicate a following of Persian customs all along the line - in
public works, in ceremonial, in penal institutions, everything"."

On one hand you say he belonged to your people and the other you say he was a Persian. Make up your mind and stop acting like a defeated peoples Bahman!

Best wishes.

Hi Facts,

Your gods Victor Mair and JP Mallory believe in the following invasions/incursions:

Sakas, Kushans, and White Huns.

Your buddies’ website, which can be found at Scythian world, has absolutely no legs to stand on, and he admits it! It is kind of like your Paul Bunyan’s Axe story!

“This great Scythic Wave is to be found expressed most ably in several of the Cambridge histories…I do this for two reasons, firstly because I lack Tarns reputation and confidence to so glibly disregard the opinions of a great many fine historians…”

http://www.keele.ac.uk/socs/ks45/PageHistory/Club/bracey/Kushan/digressions/scythians.htm

I can’t blame you for being delusional – multiple armed gods, monkey’s flying, rats, etc. is something your folks take seriously! Regards,

Hi Bahman Boy,

Please do not forget to see the difference between you people and the Jats--- YOU PEOPLE SEE A MICE AS A LION AND THE JATS SEE A LION AS A MICE! --- No wonder you have been ruled by every Tom, Dick, and Harry from the dawn of your nation's civilized history!

I know that the 2500 years of colorful history of the Jat Zajmans bothers you--- It is not the fault of the Jats but the weakness of your ancestors!

I think it will be good for you to continue to perform your traditional task of ringing bells, looking after deformed elephants, or monkeys--- You are pretty good at it and congratulations!


Best wishes.

Dumbo,

Scholars generally agree that Sakas entered Bactria around 160B.C. and India 130B.C.However latest research by Western scholars is casting doubt on the very idea of a ‘Scythian wave’ altogether!.

Read the following link in full.It’s a real eye opener.

http://www.keele.ac.uk/socs/ks45/PageHistory/Club/bracey/Kushan/digressions/scythians.htm

Following is the clincher:

“....Personally I feel a wave of invaders pushed ahead of the Yu-chi should have created more impact, and without a great deal more evidence of that impact I am inclined to believe that the famous Indo-Saca kings are really Indo-Parthian kings. “

Good Luck,

The Indian culture has been protected by the Rajputs and Jats. No Hindu women could be touched due to these people and any respected Hindu women who was touched was burnt and the revenge taken. When the Jats the descendents of the Mathura Jats the mighty Ranjit Singh captured Kabul he treated the Afghan women as his own family. This is the Rajput Jat culture. See Kanwer Natwar Singh of Bharatpur and Chief Minister amarinder Singh of Punjab these are real Jats.

Hi Facts, this is my last posting of the day. It is really all common sense.

The Jat are always fighting over their women and cover them from head to toe. They did not even date prior to marriage and some Western kids still do not date before marriage. The Jats only number 35 million. The Jats even fought for the honor of your women during Zakaria Khan’s times! – remember the Sulas stealing Hindu women? This is why your women, in times of protection always run to a Jat Sikh “Sardarji” – the only men you can trust – the ones who if you call them brother will never dare to compromise a woman.

But the Jats were apparently stupid for caring about these women with no self-respect. Your women can be found everywhere on the internet nude, with white and black males. Your western youth is running after every race, but their own. Your women are known to be extremely unchaste and love Jat men, especially truck drivers. Your country has one of the highest HIV/AIDS epidemics. You have over 1 billion offsprings of your fecundity to prove your moral laxity. Your art and epics are full of perverse ideas, photographs, etc. Bollywood is a reflection of your character. You are basically a filthy, dirty and immoral race.

I am sorry for being blunt and harsh, but you leave me no choice.

Hi Facts, the truth hurt, everyone in the world enjoys your womenfolk (see the webpages) and you know it! That is why you hate Jats so much! I am sorry your women are prostitutes. Best Wishes,

This is my last post for the day;

Dumbo,

According to Ibbetson,the Aryan burns his widow and/or disallows widow remariage.He is jealous of her honour.She is a daughter and a sister.

The Jat on the other hand prostitutes his.She is free to re-marry whomever she wishes and as many times as she likes.She is also prositiuted to her own brother-in-laws and father-inlaws.She is exploited for financial and sexual gain.


In Aryan homes,the man dominates the woman.She walks two steps behind her Lord.She worships him.In Jat homes, it is the woman who dominates.In tribal societies where fraternal polyandry is practiced,the woman wields enormous power,both psychologically and economically.In Aryan homes the woman looses all her economic power as soon as her husband dies,and even before!She remains a sister and a daughter to be protected until the end of time.

Kapich Dumbo?

P.S. The pathan woman might be 'filthy'(probably true) or 'unchaste'(I doubt truth of this statement even if Ibbetson said it) but she better not be caught or her Pathan husband,who dominates her,will slit her throat in two seconds..

Hi Facts, also regarding your friendly Pathans, why does Ibbetson repeatedly say, “Their women are extremely unchaste” and “both are filthy in their persons! No go home, Pathans’ catcher’s mit!

Regarding your women folk – I am left with no choice! Here is an example of the character of Aryan women – these may very well be Mr. Fact’s sisters:

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=pictures+of+indian+women&rs=1

Enjoy your women – the whole world is enjoying them! Best Wishes,

Hi Ashna Facts, don’t change the subject you homo-!

I am becoming curious of the acts of your Bahman folks:

Why do you drink Urine – the Water of Life?

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bra001/brah0112.html

XXX was correct, homosexuality was in the Bahman blood!

http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bra001/brah0111.html

No wonder your people will have over 20 million AIDS/HIV victims by 2010 – why do you need Bill Gates to help you out? – I thought you were a superior culture – why do you rank near Africa in these issues?

http://www.ciol.com/content/news/repts/102111104.asp

Regards,

PS – There you go again, your Freudian slips with, “especially the effiminate looks and thick lips!” When you told your family that your were a G-andu did they say “Hi Ram!!!” Or “Hi Hi Ram?”

Hey Dumbo,

You still don't get the 'thrust' of the message,don't you.They don't call you feeble minded for no reason!

The difference between Jat and Pathan is this;

An unchaste Pathan woman,if caught is stoned to death expeditiously under 'pakhtunwali law'.A polyandrous Jatti on the other hand is encouraged and flaunted by the Jat.The Pathan is jealous of his woman,the Jat sees no difficulty in sharing his with ten of brothwers.Afundamental difference in character.


In short,a Pathan will kill his unfaithful woman to protect his honour,but a Jat is willing to convert his household into a borthel if it economically benifits him.In this regard,the Pathan is similar to the Aryan to whome even widow marriage is taboo,let alone unchastity!

Do not test me on these subjects, woman!

Hey Dumbo,

By now,we all know that you would die to be a Pathan or at least be with one.Remember your 'Afridi Pathan' friend?--Come on thats code word for something more, isn't it?

.In any case, there is no evidence of fraternal polyandry among Pathans;whether your faggot Pathans are married or otherwise,not withstanding.

.But here's the thrust(no pun intended) of my argument Soniyae!

If the Mauryas(one of the largest and most significant Empires in Indian history)were 'Sakas',why is it that scholars continue to insist Sakas entered India only after 130B.C., 100 years after the total disintegration of the Empire!.

Why scholars don't buy Dhillon's mimbo-jumbo and officially change the entry(no pun intended) date of Sakas into India to 350B.C.?I mean the Mauryas after all did contribute very significantly towards Indian history of that 'period'(again no pun intended Sunny)!And not to forget King Porus and his huge Saka army.All this Saka history in 350B.C. but NO scholar is willing to even change the date of penetration(again no pun intended)to 350B.C.!?


P.S. Sunny I have seen your picture on another site.It says all.It's a Pathans dream, no doubt;especially the effiminate looks and thick lips!

Regards,

Hi Ashna Facts, with no offense to Pathans (there are nice people), but the Pathan women, for example the Afridi women, are extremely unchaste! (see Ibbetson or Rose).

What does this all mean – ONCE again you are proving to be the IDIOT and G-ANDU that you are! What happened to the “cohanim markers”, etc.? You want to write about Jats and didn’t even know about Pathan homosexuality – get out of here you clown! You are really dumb aren’t you, I bet it really makes you mad that you can’t better your Jajmans! Regards,

Hi XXX, the Pathans think this “pitching” is normal behavior – and I agree that the Bahman and other low castes were on the receiving end of the Pathans!

Hi ASHNA Facts: I said the Pathans have been overrun by Scythic tribes – I never said there were Scythian or Jat in origin. Pathans are notorious for their “pitching” they actually believe it is manly – extremely widespread and across the Pathan board – and they are not ashamed of it! At least the Taliban was effective is stopping this disgusting act!. Also, if you read the article carefully, the Pathans are usually married as well!

And here’s the kicker, you previous post, speaking completely from the heart, “I personally think that the Pathans are a relatively attractive people--with their exotic Semitic looks and generally 'fair' skin tone;the nutcracker nose not withstanding ofcourse.” Saley •••••! Regards,

Hey Sunny,


ref. your comment "Kandahar's Pashtuns have been notorious for their homosexuality for centuries, particularly their fondness for naïve young boys. "

.Dumbo, are you suggesting that Pathans are Jats because many are faggots? Am I missing something here?Are many Jats 'notorious homosexuals' just like the Pashtuns?---Answer me faggot!!

Do you know why there is homosexuality among Pathans?.Yes,precisely because fraternal polyandry is not allowed.

In the biblical code,a faggot was to either be stoned to death or burned or buried alive.Same thing happens to Pathan faggots in Afghanistan according to the law of Pakhtunwali:


"Men accused of sodomy faced the punishment of having a wall toppled on to them, usually resulting in death. '

Regards,

Hi Guys,

Here are my two cents!

A friend of mine told me that he read somewhere that prior to Jat Sikh rule in Punjab and in the surrounding areas--- "whenever a Pathan met a Bahman, the Bahman was forced by the Pathan to carry him on his back". The Pathan may have considered it as the fundamental duty of a Bahman!

Best wishes to all.

Hey Dumbo,

I am intrigued by the Pathan history out of intellectual curiosity .
The difference between me and you is that I woud NEVER want to be a Pathan but you would die to be one.Your actions,even now,speak louder than your words, dumbo .

.Look it,the matter will be settled in a few years when we perform DNA results for 'choanim markers' on the Pathans.I'm confident that they are Jews.

.I am not going to respond much to your last two posts ,because they are the products of a feeble mind.I'll simply say this:By using your 'logic',the Mahar should be Jats as well! Don't they have 'erect carriages' and a 'martial tradition' like the Jats?.Why don't you identify with them? The answer is quite simple.Because you fell superior to them.But you seek to identify with the Pathans on very inadequate phylological and ethnological grounds because you feel inferior to them.I've thorougly sized you up Sunny.


You still haven't told me, Dumbo:

If the Maurya empire,one of the largest and most significant in Indian history was Saka,why do scholars continue to insist Sakas entered India only after 130A.D.What does Mr. feeble have to say regarding this?

P.S. Sunny,according to modern and ancient scholarship Jats are European Roma and not Pathans!In Afghanistan Jats are refered to contemptiously as 'Jataki'(Gypsies) and 'Lalli'.

Regards,

Part Two of Fact’s Jewish Friends

But for the first time since the Taliban fled, in the past few weeks, one can see the pairs returning: usually a heavily bearded man, seated next to, or walking with, a clean-shaven, fresh-faced youth. There appears to be no shame or furtiveness about them, although when approached, they refuse to talk to a Western journalist.

"They are just emerging again," Torjan said. "The fighters too now have the boys in their barracks. This was brought to the attention of Gul Agha, who ordered the boys to be expelled, but it continues. The boys live with the fighters very openly. In a short time, and certainly within a year, it will be like pre-Taliban: they will be everywhere."

This Pashtun tradition is even reflected in Pashtun poetry, odes written to the beauty and complexion of an ashna, but it is usually a terrible fate for the boys concerned. It is practiced at all levels of Pashtun society, but for the poorer men, having an ashna can raise his status.

"When a man sees a boy he likes — the age they like is 15 or 16 — they will approach him in the street and start talking to him, offering him tea," said Muhammad Shah, a shop owner. "Sometimes they go looking in the football stadium, or in the cinema" (which has yet to reopen).

"He then starts to give him presents, hashish, or a watch, a ring, or even a motorbike," Shah continued. "One of the most valued presents is a fighting pigeon, which can be worth up to $400. These boys are nearly always innocent, but such is the poverty here, they cannot refuse."

Once the boy falls into the man's clutches — nearly always a man with a wife and family — he is marked for life, although the Kandaharis accept these relationships as part of their culture.

When driven around, ashna sit in the front passenger seat. The back seat is simply for his friends. Even the parents of the boys know in their hearts the nature of the relationship, but will tell people that their son is working for the man. They, like everyone else, will know this is a lie.

"They say birds flew with both wings with the Taliban," Muhammad said. "But not any more."

More sites verifying Pathan lust for males include:

/mail.sarai.net/pipermail...01086.html

www.sodomylaws.org/world/...news07.htm

www.ipce.info/library_3/f...ale/en.htm

Best Wishes,

Hi Facts Idiot, you don’t know much about Pathans do you? What makes you think I would want to be a Pathan? I am saying that they have some Scythian blood. It is you that is obsessed with them! Here is a description of their behavior, maybe you can relate. I can safely say that this is not Jat characteristics:

Kandahar Men Return to Original Love: Teenage Boys

Sunday, January 27, 2002
By Tim Reid

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — Now that Taliban rule is over in Mullah Omar's former southern stronghold, it is not only televisions, kites and razors which have begun to emerge.

Visible again, too, are men with their ashna, or beloveds: young boys they have groomed for sex.

Kandahar's Pashtuns have been notorious for their homosexuality for centuries, particularly their fondness for naïve young boys. Before the Taliban arrived in 1994, the streets were filled with teenagers and their sugar daddies, flaunting their relationships.

Kandahar is called the homosexual capital of south Asia. Such is the Pashtun obsession with sodomy — locals tell you that birds fly over the city using only one wing, the other covering their posterior — that the rape of young boys by warlords was one of the key factors in Mullah Omar mobilising the Taliban.

In the summer of 1994, a few months before the Taliban took control of the city, two commanders confronted each other over a young boy whom they both wanted to sodomize.

In the ensuing fight civilians were killed. Omar's group freed the boy and appeals began flooding in for Omar to help in other disputes.

By November, Omar and his Taliban were Kandahar's new rulers. Despite the Taliban disdain for women, and the bizarre penchant of many for eyeliner, Omar immediately suppressed homosexuality.

Men accused of sodomy faced the punishment of having a wall toppled on to them, usually resulting in death. In February 1998 three men sentenced to death for sodomy in Kandahar were taken to the base of a huge mud and brick wall, which was pushed over by tank. Two of them died, but one managed to survive.

"In the days of the Mujahedeen [the pre-Taliban victors against the Communist government], there were men with their ashna everywhere, at every corner, in shops, on the streets, in hotels: it was completely open, a part of life," said Torjan, 38, one of the soldiers loyal to Kandahar's new governor, Gul Agha Sherzai.

"But in the later Mujahedeen years, more and more soldiers would take boys by force, and keep them for as long as they wished," Torjan said. "But when the Taliban came, they were very strict about the ban. Of course, it still happened — the Taliban could not enter every house — but one could not see it."

Hi Dumbo,

I've thoroughly figured you out!Just as the Punjabi Chmar looks up to the Punjabi Jat so the Punjabi Jat looks up to the Pathan.Like I said before Sunny,you would give your right arm to be a Pathan,any Pathan.--It's that obvious.

Anyhow,you quote Dr. Bellow without knowing that he was the champion of the Jewish identity of the Pathans.Ibbetson seconed that opinion--Afridis according to Dr. Bellows are primarily Jewish with many other secondary racial strains.(Read Ibbetson again carefully ).According to Dr. Bellow,the TRUE Pathan claims descent from King Saul and 'Afghana',a product of king Solomon,a Hamito-Semitic from Ur of the Chaldenesses (Mesopotamia) and he concours.Following is further evidence from modern scholarship;


"http://www.moshiach.com/features/tribes/pathans.asp

THE SIMILARITY OF THE PATHANS TO THE JEWS

“…The British, who ruled Afghanistan for a long time, found it difficult to distinguish between the Pathans and the Jews, and called the Pathans 'Juz' - Jews. The Jews, too found it hard to distinguish between themselves and the Pathans when the latter are not wearing traditional dress. Afghanistan has about 21 peoples and languages and only the Pathans, apart from the Jews, look clearly Semitic;
…”

.Dumbo,how can Jats be Semites in one breath , Germans and Goths in another?Semites are as different from Scandanavians(Germans/Goths) as say, blacks are from Arabs?.

.Also Pathans do not show Jat traditions like fraternal polyandry,because in 'Pakhtunwali'(biblical)law ,a polyandrous woman was to be immediately stoned to death.Even today,a Pathan woman who commits adultry,let alone fraternal polyandry, is sentenced to death under the dictates of the Jewish and not the Arabic law!. In addition,Pathans have uniquly Jewish traditions like the passover,circumsicion,lighting of candles on the Sabbath,the ancient code called 'Pakhtunwali' etc...Where do you like to fit in all this Sunny boy?


Read the following Dumbo;

Bingley's book,'Sikhs',pg.13-16.


"The proverbs of the Pathans and Baluchis are full of contemptuos references to the 'Jats' or'Hindkis' as they are perhaps more commonly called.'The Jat is such a fool that only god can take care of him'. 'Get around a Pathan by coaxing,but heave a clod at a Hindki.'In short the Muhammaden Jat of the Indus valley is looked down upon by the Pathan as a member of an inferior race."


Regards,


P.S. Dumbo,if Sakas founded the Maurya dynasty,one of the largest and most significant empires in Indian history,how come scholars do not credit them by changing the entry date of Sakas into India to 350B.C.?

Regards,

Hi Facts, did you give up the pursuit of being descended from Paul Bunyan’s axe? Why does the entire world believe you are a dark, skinny, and hungry people? Why have you never been the Kings of your own country? Why are you so easily ruled? Why are you not keeping in line of your traditions in serving your Jat Jajmans? Think of it as a client-patron relationship – perhaps your hovering around your Jat rulers is something in the blood!? Best Wishes,

Hi Facts, you said “The inferior usually admires the superior” such is the case with you – other wise you would not be on a thread dedicated to the history of your Jajmans – the Jats!

Do you find any Jats wasting their time on Bahman websites?

J.D. Cunningham wrote in his History of the Sikhs [p299]:

“The Jats merge on the one side into Rajputs, and on the other into the Afghans, the names of the Jat subdivisions being the same with those of the Rajputs in the east, and again with those of the Afghans, and even Baluchis, in the west, and many obscure tribes being able to show plausibly that at least they are as likely to be Rajputs or Afghan as to be Jats…it may be mentioned that the Birks or Virks, one of the most distinguished tribes of Jats, is admitted among the Chaluk Rajputs by Tod, and that there are Kukker and Kakar Jats, Kukker Kokur, and Kakar Afghans, besides Gakhars, not included in any of the three races.”

In Denzil Ibbetson’s Punjab Castes, I found a reference to Afridi Pathans:

“Dr. Bellows says that the Afridi, whom he identifies with the Aparytae of Herodotus, originally held the whole of the Safed Koh system between Kabul and the Kurram river, from the Indus to the headwaters of the Kurram and Pewar ridge. But since the great Scythic invasion of the 5th and succeeding centuries, they have been successively encroached upon by tribes of very diverse origin; first by the Orakzai and Bangash to the south, and later by the Waziri and Turi to the south-west, the Khatak to the east, and the Ghilzai, Khungiani and Shinwari to the west. They now hold only the central fastnesses of the eastern extremity of the Safed Koh; namely, the Khyber mountains, the valley of the Bara and the range south of that valley which separates Kohat from Peshawar, and the northern parts of Tirali, which they recovered from the Orakzai in the time of Jahangir. The Pathan historians trace their descent from Burhan, son of Kakai, grandson of Karlanri, by his son Usman named Afridi, and say that in the 7th century the Khyber tract was held by Rajputs (actually Jats as Rajputs did not come in vogue yet) of the Bhatti tribe…subjects of the Raja of Lahore, who were constantly harassed by the Afghans of Ghor and the Sulemans; and that about the end of the century the Afridi, then in alliance with the Gakkhars (Jats) obtained from Lahore Government all the hill country west of the Indus and south of the Kabul river…The Afridi are divided into five clans (a Scythian custom), of which the Ula Khel and in it the Zakha Khel sept is the largest, while the Mita Khel are no longer to be found in Afghanistan, and the Miri Khel have been amalgamated with the Malildin, and Aka Khel.”

Basically it was the Afridis that were encroached by Jats and ruled by Bhattis, and later they joined the Gakkhar Jats (also considered Indo-Scythians) to obtain their current position.

Regards,

Sunny,

How are you doing Dumbo? By the way,have you tried asking Dhillon the following simple question?

If king Porus fielded a mighty Saka army comprising well over 50 000 troops against Alexander in India in 326B.C. ,why is it that all scholars continue to insist Saka settlements BEGIN in India only after 130B.C.?

Just to put things in perspective,there have only been a couple of dozen wars in human history that have exceeded troop formations in excess of 50 000 men,and the majority of these in the last 200 years!In other words,Alexander faught the most pivotal war of his career against this mighty Saka army but scholars still refuse to believe that Sakas began entering India for another 250 years!Are we missing something here?

I have said it many times before that Dhillon's 'history' is a low grade propoganda campaign to make the feeble minded folks feel better about themselves.Specifically,like minded simpletons who believe 'Gen. Mushraff Tarar is a Jat'.

No offense intended.

More info. on the Lalli Jats; by the top Chinese scholar on Roma origins in the World.What a colorful history!


Source:Yung Zhi Jiu ‘The Gypsy People in the Yuan Dynasty’ ------- ‘Luo Li Huii Huii’
.
also by XuuFai , graduate student,,
, University of St. Thomas


"In short, the 'Luolli' mentioned in the Yuan Dynasty History or the 'Luri' or 'Lalli' in the Persian language is the Persian word for Gypsy who originated in North India and that is the basic meaning of the word.

'Luoli': the earliest name of the Gypsies
Calling Luoli "Gypsy" is something that happened in history. In Europe after the 15th century, they were called Egyptian because the Luoli lied and said that they were Christian pilgrims coming from ‘Little Egypt’

In France, they were called "Bohemian" and not "Egyptian" because they were thought to be from Bohemia.

In Spanish, they were called Gitano (for male) and Gitana (for female).

Subsequently, the earliest documented name for Gypsies should be Lalli or Luli, which was translated into Chinese as Luoli in the Yuan Dynasty. The Persian poet Firdausi (about 935 –1020 or 1025 AD) in his historic epic "Shah-nama" (written in around 1010) recorded that the fifth Persian King (Bahram V, 420- 438 AD, as the King) dispatched an emissary to India, and asked the Indian King Shangul to send 10,000 male and female Lalli who were good at harp music to Persia in order to entertain the poor in his country. Bahram met those Lalli when they came and gave each person an ox and a donkey. He also gave each 1,000 sacks of wheat as food and seeds for farming, and at the same time asked them to play music free for the poor. However the 'Luoli' people ate all the wheat and oxen, and then came back to see the King one year later. The king told them they should themselves be blamed because they did not plant, but ate all the seeds. They were told to leave with the donkey and play music to make their living, since all they had with them were their donkeys. The poet concluded with:
Today’s Lalli are still living as the King said before
Not owning any land but wandering all over the world.
Wandering with wolves and dogs
Living by stealing and robbing.."

Regards,

XXX,

What kind of 'Zazmans' collect welfare(OBC) and don't even have their own Country?

I think you are deluding yourself my friend!--speak sensibly or not at all.

regards,

Hi Kheer Khane,

Please do not be disrespectful to your Jat Zamans with 2500 years of colorful history.

In contast, the history of elephants, monkeys, multiarm ,etc!

Best wishes.

One more thing feeble minded Sunny,

The British ethnologists had marvellous thoughts about the untouchable Mahar and the Punjabi Chmar as well.So what?....Even though the Brahmins resisted the British occupation most forcefully,they still had nice things to say about us.For example,McCarrison in the article you furnish,list Brahmins as a martial caste inspite of their continuing rebellion against British occupation at the time of writing of his article!Not to forget Sherring,Colebrook and a host of other British who admired the Brahmins.

Just to put things in perspective,this is what the British said regarding the Zulu :

http://ubh.tripod.com/etext/liv05.htm
Chapter 5

Dr. David Livingston says;


“..The Zulu inhabitants are tall, muscular, and well made; they are shrewd, energetic, and brave; altogether they merit the character given them by military authorities, of being "magnificent savages". Their splendid physical development and form of skull show that, but for the black skin and woolly hair, they would take rank among the foremost Europeans….”

Get off the slave mentality Sunny boy and be secure in your OWN RIGHT!

Sunny,


You are a feeble minded individual indeed!

Regarding your last post,just because General McCarrison mentions Jats,Pathans and Hunza in one sentence does not mean that they are all related and 'belong in the same boat'..

Sunny,why do you continuously seek to identify with every other race under the Sun except your own kind(Roma)? .The inferior usually admires the superior and so it is with you,old friend.You would give up your right arm to be a Pathan at this point in time,woudn't you?I know you very well by now Sunny!


Look it,the Hunza(Alexandrian Greeks) are as different from Pathans(Jews) as they are different from Jats.
Read what Gen. McCarrison says once again:


"The Pathans, therefore, are not the immediate neighbours of the Hunza, nor are they allied to them in race. The Pathans are in part Semitic, their neighbours, the Afghans, being yet more Semitic. The Pathans call themselves Beni-Israel, as descendants of the ten lost tribes of Israel."

So, you are now claiming to be a Pathan(Jew) also .What happened to your 'Scythian' fantasy ?


P.S. Sunny,do you know some famous Pathan sayings ?;--'The Jat is so dumb that only God can take care of him' or 'reason with others but heave a clod at the poor hindki-Jat'.Not to forget that in Afghanistan you guys are called 'Lalli',and you know what that means!


Good Luck wanna-be 'Pathan' or 'Hunza' or 'Greek' or 'Swede' or 'Scot' etc.!You will NEVER be anyone EXCEPT yourself Sunny!The sooner you realise this the wiser you will become.

Hi Facts, you again are not making any sense,

Here is what an Afridi Pathan says:

“Put it this way, Jatts, Gujars, Rajputs and Pathans tend to be similar. We certainly can be differentiated from the numerous puny hindu man.

Hindu man is like Ghandi. Puny, weak and a coward. I hate cowardice.

Brave people are fine with me. I get on well with people who have similar attributes to myself.”

This is what a Britishers says:

"How is it that man can be such a magnificent physical creature as the Hunza, the Sikh, or the Pathan?"

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoH2.html

They lump Jats and Pathans in the same boat as they stand out against the inferior races of India; the pedigree of Mr. Facts! That is just the way the “cookie crumbles” as Mr. XXX puts it.

I understand that you have no proud history, but have some self-respect and go to your own thread about your own people - we don’t care about your people. Best Wishes,

PART IV

Some of the classical writers or documents covering material on Scythians/ India are as follows:

Herodotus (B.C. 490-425): The Histories, translated by de Selincourt, Penguin Books, New York, 1988.
Periplus (Written around A.D. 60), The Periplus of the Erythrean Sea translated by W.H. Schoff, Longmans,
Green and Co., London, 1912.
Pliny, (A.D. 23-79): Natural History, translated by H. Rackham, Harvard University Press, Cambridge,
Massachusetts, 1947.
Arrian (A.D. 95-175): Anabasis of Alexander, translated by Professor P.A. Brunt of Oxford University, Harvard
University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1976.
Diodorus of Sicily (Published around B.C. 49), translated by C.H. Oldfather, 12 Vols., Harvard University Press,
Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1936.
Ptolemy (90-168 A.D.), Geography of Caludius Ptolemy, translated and edited by E.L. Stevenson, The New York

Public Library, New York, 1932.
Strabo (born in B.C. 64), The Geography of Strabo, translated by H.L. Jones, Harvard University
Press,Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1954.
Jordanes (A.D. 551), The Gothic History of Jordanes, translated by Dr.C.C. Mierow of Princeton University,
Barnes and Noble, Inc.,New York, 1915, reprinted in 1966.
Isidore of Seville (born in A.D. 560), History of the Goths, Vandals, and Suevi, translated by G. Donini, G.B.
Ford, E.J.Brill, Leiden, The Netherlands.
Bede (8th century A.D.?), Ecclesiastical History, translated by J.A.Giles, Bohn's Library, London, 1871.
Ammianus, Marcellinus (born around A.D. 330), translated by J.C. Rolfe, Harvard University Press, Cambridge,
Massachusetts, 1956.

Some of the journals specifically devoted to the subject of the Scythians are listed below [80]:

Skify i sarmaty (Scythians and Sarmatians), Kiev, Ukraine, 1977.
Skify i Kavkaz (Scythians and the Caucasus), Kiev, Ukraine, 1980.
Skifskie drevnosti (Scythian antiquities), Kiev, Ukraine, 1973.
Skifskij mir (Scythian world), Kiev, Ukraine, 1975.

Best wishes to all.

PARTIII

The Getae and the Dacians, and Sarmatae (Sarmatians) and Parthians (related to Scythians), in The Cambridge

Ancient History, edited by S.A. Cook, F.E. Adcock, M.P. Charlesworth, Vol. II, Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge, 1954.
Williams, H.S., The Historians' History of the World, 25 Vols., Scythians and Cimmerians, (Vol. 2), The Outlook
Company, New York, 1905, pp. 400-410.
Banerji, R.D., The Scythian Period of Indian History, Indian Antiquary, Vol. XXXVIII, 1909-1910, pp. 25-74.
Cunningham, A., Coins of the Indo-Scythians, Sakas, and Kushans, Reprinted by Indological Book House,
Varanasi, India, 1971, first published in 1888.
Trippett, F., The First Horsemen (Scythians), Time Life Books, New York, 1974.
Eggermont, P.H.L., Alexander's Campaign in Gandhara and Ptolemy's List of Indo-Scythian Towns, Orientalis
Lavaniensia Periodica I, 1970, pp. 63-123.
Cunningham, A., Later Indo-Scythians (Coins), No. 11, Reprinted by Indological Book House, Varanasi, India,
1979, first published in 1893-94.
Bachrach, B.S., The Alans in Gaul, Tradito, XXIII, 1967, pp. 476-489.
Thompson, E.A., The Settlement of the Barbarians in Southern Gaul, Journal of Roman Studies, Vol. XLVI, 1956,

pp. 65-75.
Vernadsky, G., Eurasian Nomads and Their Impact on Medieval Europe, Studi Medievali, 3rd Ser., Vol. 4, 1963,
pp. 401-434.
Rolle, R., The World of the Scythians, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1989.
Rostovtzeff, M., Iranians (Scythians) and Greeks in South Russia, Russell and Russell, A Division of Atheneum
Publishers, Inc., New York, 1922, Reprinted in 1969.
Leake, J.A., The Geats of Beowulf, The University of Wisconsin Press, Madison, 1967.
Williams, H.S., The Historians' History of the World, 25 Vols., Scythians and Cimmerians (Vol. 2), The Outlook
Company, New York, 1905, pp. 400-410.
Banerjea, J.N., The Scythians and Parthians (also related to Scythians) in India, in a Comprehensive History of
India, edited by K.A.N. Sastri, Vol. 2, People's Publishing House, New Delhi, India, 1987, pp. 186-309, 830-838.
Bachhofer, L., On Greeks and Sakas (Scythians) in India, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. LXI,
1941, pp. 223-250.
Jenkins, G.K., Indo-Scythic Mints, Journal of the Numismatic Society of India, Vol. XVII, No. 2, 1955, pp. 1-26.
Marshall, J., Greeks and Sakas (Scythians) in India, Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and
Ireland, 1947, pp. 3f.
Smith, V.A., The Kushana or Indo-Scythian Period of Indian History (165 B.C.-A.D. 320, Journal of the Royal
Asiatic society of Great Britain and Ireland, 1903, pp. 1-64.

PART II

Some of the books which cover a substantial amount of material on the Jats are as follows:

Barstow, A.E., The Sikhs: An Enthonology, Reprinted by B.R. Publishing Corporation, Delhi, India, 1985, first
published at the Request of the Government of India in 1928.
Bingley, A.H., Handbooks for the Indian Army: Sikhs, Compiled Under the Orders of the Government of India,
Printed at the Government Central Printing Office, Simla, India, 1899.
Falcon, R.W., Handbook on Sikhs for the Use of Regimental Officers, Printed at the Pioneer Press, Allahabad,
India, 1896.
Cunningham, J.D., History of the Sikhs, Reprinted by S. Chand & Company Ltd., New Delhi, India, 1985, first
published in 1849.
Hewitt, J.F., The Ruling Races of Prehistoric Times in India, South-Western Asia, and Southern Europe,
Archibald
Constable & Co., London, 1894, pp. 481-487.
Risley, H., The People of India, Reprinted by Oriental Books Reprint Corporation, Delhi, India, 1969, first
published in 1915, pp. 132-133 (Jat proverbs).
Tod, J., Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, 2 Vols., Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd., London, 1972 (reprint), first
published in 1829.
MacMunn, G., The Martial Races of India, Reprinted by Mittal Publications, Delhi, India, 1979, first published in
1932.
Jats, The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Vol. 6, Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., Chicago, 1990, pp. 510.
Sleeman, W.H., Rambles and Recollections, Reprinted by Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, 1973, first
published in 1844, pp. 300-310, 355-383, 475-479.
Burton, R.F., Sindh and the Races that Inhabit the Valley of the Indus, Reprinted by Oxford University Press,
Karachi, 1975, first published in 1851, pp. 246-365, 411.
Lane-Poole, S., Medieval India: Under Mohammedan Rule (A.D. 712-1764), Reprinted by Haskell House
Publishers
Ltd., New York, 1970, first published in 1903, pp. 9-10, 27-28, 41-43, 406.PART II

As the overwhelming historical and other factors support that the Jats are ethicnically related to the Scythian
people (Scythians, Sarmatians, and Alans or Alani), thus the selected literature on these people is given below.


Talbot-Rice, T., The Scythians, Frederick A. Praeger, New York, 1961.
Sulimirski, T., The Sarmatians, Praeger Publishers, New York, 1970.
Bachrach,B.S., A History of the Alans in the West, University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis, 1973.
Konow, S., Notes on Indo-Scythians Chronology, Journal of Indian History, Vol. XII, 1916, pp. 8.
Scythians, The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., Chicago, 1984, pp. 438-442.
Smirnow, A.P., Die Skythen, Dresden, 1979.
Grakow, B.N., Die Skythen, Berlin, 1978.
Minns, E.H., Scythians and Greeks, 2 Vols., Biblo and Tannen, New York, 1965.

Hi Guys,

Jats are a people with over
2500 years of recorded history---
most of the jats are not even aware of their roots!

For more information on this issue I suggest you consult Dhillon's book below( it also lists over 500 references
for
further studies)

Dhillon, B.S. History and Studies of the Jats, Beta Publishers, 1994.

The other related material on Jats in THREE PARTS is as follows:


PART I

Over past 150 years, several books and other related materials partially or wholly concerning Jats have
appeared. This section presents some of it for the benefit of readers and future researchers. Most of the books

totally devoted to Jats are as follows:

Bingley, A.H., History, Caste, and Culture of Jats and Gujars, Reprinted by Ess Ess Publications, New Delhi,
India, 1978, first published in 1899.
Dahiya, B.S., Jats: The Ancient Rulers, Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, India, 1980.
Qanungo, K.R., History of the Jats, Reprinted by Sunita Publications, Delhi, India, 1987, first published in 1925.
Pradhan, M.C., The Political System of the Jats of Northern India, Oxford University Press, London, 1966.
Mahil, U.S., Antiquity of Jat Race, Atma Ram & Sons, Delhi, India, 1955.
Pettigrew, J., Robber Noblemen: A Study of the Political System of the Sikh Jats, Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd.,
London, 1975.
Shastri, Y.P., Jat Kshatriya Itihas (History of the Jats and the Kshatriyas), Hardwar, India, 1943.
Desh Raj, Jat Ithihas (History of the Jats), Kanti Press, India, 1938.

Selective articles totally devoted to the Jats are as follows:

Rose, H.A., Jats, in a Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province,
Reprinted by the Languages Dept., Patiala, Punjab, 1970, first published in 1883, pp. 1-59 (Vol. I), pp. 357-378
(Vol. II).
Elliot, H.M., Encylopaedia of Caste, Customs, Rites and Superstitions of the Races of Northern India, Vol. 1,
Reprinted by Sumit Publications, Delhi, India, 1985, first published in 1870, pp. 131-137.
Sara, I., The Scythian Origin of the Sikh-Jat (Part I), The Sikh Review, March 1978, pp. 26-35.
Sara, I., The Scythian Origin of the Sikh-Jat (Part II), The Sikh Review, April 1978, pp. 15-27.
Habib, I., Jatts (Jats) of Punjab and Sind, in Essays in Honour of Dr. Ganda Singh, Punjabi University Press,
Patiala, Punjab, 1976, pp. 92-103.
Singh, J., Sikh Militancy and Jats, in Advanced Studies in Sikhism, edited by J.S. Mann and H.S. Saraon,
Published by Sikh community of North America, P.O. Box 16635, Irvine, California, 1989, pp. 214-233.
Helweg, A.W., Punjabi Farmers: Twenty Years in England, India International Center Quarterly, Vol. 5, No. 1,
1978.
Pettigrew, J.J.M., The Emigration of Sikh-Jats from the Punjab to England, in Social Science Research Council
Report, Project HR 331-1, edited by A.C. Mayer, London, 1971.
In Fear of Jats, The Economist, Feb. 1991, pp. 37.

The story of the Lalli Jat as told by ancient Chinese chronicles.Fascinating!!

Source:Yung Zhi Jiu ‘The Gypsy People in the Yuan Dynasty’ ------- ‘Luo Li Huii Huii’
.
also by XuuFai , graduate student,,
, University of St. Thomas


Prof. Yung Zhi Jiu
is the foremost scholar on Gypsy origins in China.Gypsies ofcourse did come in contact with the Chinese,from time to time.Prof. Yung hails from the Department of History, Nankai University(a top Chinese University).

note:The Chinese people refet to the Gypsy as ‘Luo Li’(Lalli)!!


"According to the June’s Record of "The Story of Shun Emperor" of The Yuan Dynasty History, Volume 4, in Zhizheng’s third year (1343 AD),
"More than 500 ‘Luo Li’ Cili crossed the river and robbed in Jie county, Ji County, Xian County, etc this month."

The Yuan Dynasty History, Volume 105. The word of 'Luoli' probably comes from the Persian word "Lali", the clan name for a wandering tribe which means ‘tramp, vagrant, or beggar.’"


Of The Yuan Dynasty History, Volume 20, which Mr. Tasaka Yorimichi did not cite in his book:
"In the September of Dade’s sixth year (1302 AD), an officer reported, ‘The 'Luoli' were harassing the residents, and should be detained in the Tuntiansuo (the equivalent of "prison" at that time) by law.’"

In the "An-Muhai’s Story" of The Yuan Dynasty History, Volume 122, the following can be found:
"An-Muhai conquered the 'LuoLi' , Xifan along with the King Chongzong in Kuichou (1253 AD)."

In his work ,"Tuohuantiemuer Kehan’s Story" of Mentuer’s Record, Volume 16, Tu noted that in the third year of Zhizheng:
"The Huihui 'LuoLi' mentioned in the ‘An-Muhai Story’ is the same as Lali. Five hundred of them were captured and now were arranged to live in Shaanxi Province."
Luoli or Cili has that meaning based on the General Persian-English Dictionary (F. J. Steingass, 1930) as listed in the bibliography attached to his article. According to the same book (1977 edition), the meanings of "Lali", transferred from the Persian script, include "brave, rude, shameless; singer, street beggar; beautiful, slender; the name of a kind of bird; and the Gypsy tribe of Persia


The Islam Encyclopedia is also mentioned in Tasaka Yorimishi’s book.Minorski, a famous English expert on Iran and the compiler of the book, defines the word of "Lali" in its first edition published in 1928. The first definition of "Lali" is one name of the Persian gypsy (According to Tasaka Yorimishi, it implies the Persian Gypsy has other names). The other explanations that follow include "They are called ‘Luli’ and ‘Lori’ also in Persian, and ‘Lori’ in Puluzhi. "

Regards,

Source: C.G. Leland,‘The Gypsies’ 1882 p. 59.

Prof. Leland writes;


"...Zott and Lalli are still Persian names for Gypsy.Zott is an Arabicized version of the Indian Trible name Jat.

If early Romani History matches Rajput History as it seems to, then members of various groups were recruited to be trained as a Military force to resist invasion of the Muslims into India. Numerous detachments from Sind served in the Persian army at the time of the Arab incursions of the seventh century and when the tide ran against the King of Persia they deserted to the Arab side and settled in Basra,elseware other colonies of Jats were established. Once again the Arabs made a surge through Asia and invaded Sind in the early eight century, a large number of Jats and other inhabitants were deported by the Arabs to the banks of the Tigres:Several bands of these were to colonize northen Syria.The first entry of the Gypsies into Christian territories recorded by the Arab Chronicler Fabri who relates how large number of Jats where taken prisoner in 855 when the Byzantines attacked Syria and carried them off with their women,children and buffaloes.

In Persia the Gypsies were intruders, they had to learn the language of their surroundings in order to communicate with the residents. There is a absence of Arabic words in the Romani language. This would mean their having left the country before the mid-seventh century.... The true History of the Gypsy race is in a study of their language" declared one great scholar.
....The Gypsies peripatetic way of life would not have seemed unusual to others,....
The Gypsies dispora has sometimes been compared with the Jews: however, the Gypsies was a dispora of a people with no priestly caste, no recognized standard for their language, no texts en-shrining a corpus of beliefs and a code of morality,no appointed custodians of ethnic traditions.

..The earlist reference to the presence of Gypsies in Constantinopel was around 1050,when it is written the Emperor Monomachus was helped by a Samariton people, decendants of Simon the Magician who were called Adsincani,known for Soothsaying & Sorcery.... The next reference to the Gypsies, comes in the twelfth century,in a commentary by Theodore Balsamon who threatened excommunication for any member of the Church who exploited the public by displaying bears or other animals for amusement or by telling fortunes."

Regards,

Sunny,

More Aryan history from the Iranian perspective:


http://www.akshin.net/introduction/intro-antecedents.htm


B. The Aryans (1500-1200 BCE) Nomadic tribes originating from Central Asia in succeeding waves “invade” Iran and the Indian Subcontinent (from the Pamir-mountains and/or the Hindu-Kush). These Indo-Iranians are split up into two branches who settle themselves in different areas: the Iranians and the Indo-Aryans.
Religious Conflict?
Avestan ahura = god
Vedic ashura = demon, demonic godhead

Avestan daeva = demon
Vedic deva = god

.
Gradually the Indo-Aryan invaders spread over the Indian Subcontinent. They first populate the valleys of the Indus and the Upper Ganges, and later spread towards the south and the east. Some theories speak of a “cultural diffusion”[1] taking place.
It is assumed that their religious opinions – to a large extend – can be found back in the Veda.
C. The Holy Veda A collection of hymns, incantations, rituals, and spells. Probably originated between 1500 BCE (1200 BCE?) and 900 BCE (final redaction?).


...The most important gods are celestial gods (inherent to nomadic life, anthropomorphic); besides these there are also a number of impersonal god-figures. Among the most important we find:
Varuna: (cfr. Ouranos) a war and weather god, but also maintainer of Rta (world-order)
Dyaus Pita: (cfr. Zeus Pater, Jupiter) Father of Heaven and Father of the Gods, which already is regarded as a deus otiosus[2]
Indra: leader of the gods in their battle against demons.
Agni: the sacred sacrificial fire
Soma: the intoxicating sacrificial drink
Although the oldest literature (Rg-veda) puts a strong emphasis on the role of the Warrior-Class (Ksatriya), it is also possible to find traces in the Veda of opposition and duality between Warrior (ksatriya) and Priest (brahmin).
D. Brahmanism (900-200 BCE) This period is characterized by the religious dominance of the Brahmin: he is the only one who is professionally entitled to perform the prescribed sacrifices.
....1. Brahmanistic Society


Society is structured in horizontal layers: the first “caste”-system[3]. There are 4 main castes or classes:
Brahmins: .....).
Ksatriyas: (warriors), the nobility, apparently they are the direct descendants of the Aryans (cfr. the Franks in Gaul)
Vaisyas: ......
Sudras: the large mass of virtually unpropertied laborers, a class of servants and menials.
.....
Besides the “official” religion, which was totally controlled by the brahmin, there also existed a number of religions of a shamanistic nature, probable related to the pre-Aryan religions (some even suggest relations with the Indus-Valley Culture).

Following is more Aryan history from the Iranian perspective.It’s always nice to get a feel of the historical perspective from the other side of the coin;

http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departments/relstudies/290/iranian/zoroastrianism/roots.html

“..On the basis of scholarly reconstruction, it has been determined that the Indo-Iranian religion was based largely on the Iranian text called Avesta, as well as on the Indian Rigveda. Indeed, Avesta works written long after Zarathushtra's death reflect some beliefs that resemble those found within the Indian Vedas, or earliest Hindu texts. At some point during the third millennium BCE, due to internal discord, a division occurred within the Indo-Iranian group. By 1500 BC, a massive migration from the steppes commenced. One portion, the Indo-Aryans, migrated to the northwestern part of India, also known as the Punjab, as well as to some parts of the Near East. The other group, the Iranians, settled across the Iranian plateau, occupying modern Iran, Afghanistan, and portions of Soviet Central Asia. The religion of the Iranians is known as "Old Iranian," and what is known about it has also been reconstructed in the academy, using evidence from the Avesta text, Achaemenid inscriptions, classical writing, and other bits of information.

.....Nevertheless, Indo-Iranian culture can be characterized as having been one of cattle-based nomadic or semi-nomadic pastoralism. Another important aspect of this society was its well as its warrior ideal, which became the model for the gods and heroes of Indo-Iranian myth.
On a basic level, Indo-Iranian religion divided the cosmos into three hierarchical levels going from earth, to atmosphere, to heaven. The masculine "sky gods," who inhabit heaven, were believed to have created the universe and represent ethical ideals. The Indo-Iranians are not thought to have had a single creation myth, for various creation myths abound on the Indo-Aryan side. ....
Sacrifice was indeed the major element of early Iranian worship, taking the form of libations, soma (Haoma), and in some cases animals. Additionally, Indo- Iranians honored personifications of the sun, moon, earth, heaven, and other all other natural forces. Despite this, Aryan religion forbade the use of statues or images. Nonetheless, they worshipped and propitiated their deities with sacrificial meals to which they were invited as guests of honor.


http://www.raziel.com/RazielDomain/site_Sefer_Raziel/ORBS/belZoroa.html

“About a thousand years later, circa 2000 BCE, the Proto Indo-Aryans split into two groups. One group migrated westwards and came to be known as the Iranians while the other group went east and was known as the Vedic Indians or Vedic Aryans. Because of this common root the early religious scriptures of the Indian and the Iranian have some similarities but after the split each of them developed separately.

Sunny,

I personally think that the Pathans are a relatively attractive people--with their exotic Semitic looks and generally 'fair' skin tone;the nutcracker nose not withstanding ofcourse.
Jats on the other hand are ,well ...to put it bluntly,very 'Indianish looking' ,dull peasant people, hopelessly steeped in Gypsy-like superstitions.
And I am no doubt speaking the ethnological truth when I call you folks Gypsy!


Anyway,more to the point,I am certain that your imaginary 'Afridi Pathan' friend is just that,a figment of your less than fertile immagination;but this is what R.F. Burton and A.W. Hughes said about you guys in real life;

Dr. Capt. R.F. Burton says;--

"The Jats of Belochistan

"The following interesting extract is borrowed from "The Country of Balochestan",by A.W. Hughes.(London,1877)It appears to be a fact that the Jats in some places preserve the calling of itinerant Gypsies and this more particularly in Afghanistan;and it is not unlikely that some affinity in their language and habits might very possibly be traced between them and the vagabond races of Zingaris which are spread over so large a portion of Europe."


The Jats of Punjab

"The Panjabi Jat,is neither Hindu nor Muslim.He appears first in Indian history as a nomad,alternately shepherd,robber,and temporary tiller of ground.Many became Sikhs,and did good service to Nanak's faith by their zealous opposition to Muhammadan bigotry.The mediaeval Gypsy shows family resemblences,physical and moral,ethnological and linguistic,with the modern Jats,a highly important race,which extends from the mouth of the Indus."


P.S.
Hey what's that old Gypsy/Jat trick to drive away a fit of epilepsy?I think you smell an old sh----

Regards,

Chandragupta Maurya was an Aryan and a Kshatriya. His mother Maura was the reason for the name Maurya. In Rajputs of Rajasthan the name Maurya stiil exists. So try your luck elsewhere

Nice post. Mahatma Gandhi is the pride of India. He was a businessmen so it was not necessary for him to be big. The warriors Jats and Rajputs are bigger than most people on this globe. The Pathans originally were Hindus. But after the Arab conquest of Afghanistan they accepted Islam. Many tribes did even marry with the Arabs. You do have some pure tribes amongst the Afghans but the Jats and Rajputs of India have never mixed with any other people.

Hi XXX,

Thanks,

Facts, why do outsiders view your people as the following, as per an honest Afridi Pathan?:

“Put it this way, Jatts, Gujars, Rajputs and Pathans tend to be similar. We certainly can be differentiated from the numerous puny hindu man.

Hindu man is like Ghandi. Puny, weak and a coward. I hate cowardice.

Brave people are fine with me. I get on well with people who have similar attributes to myself.”

See you kid…

Hi Sunny,

Honestly, I do not know too much about mythology, In particular the defeated people!
Incidently, a friend of mine once made the following remarks:

" The defeated people worsh-- anything and everything they are afraid off --deformed people, mice, monkeys,etc "

I think foreign element must be present to a certain degree-- e.g., they have high regards for both white and black multi-arm women!

On the other hand Jats, as per Prof. Pettgrew bow to no one but God. Moreover,as per Herodotus, Scythians used to shoot arrows in the sky during thunder and lightening and Alans used to fix their sword in the ground to worship it-- it makes sense!---Even in the modern Jat folklore, they sing about their bravery!

Regards.

Hi Sunny,

Don't get excited..

I agree with you that Jats,Bruhis(Dravadians),Balochies and some others have degrees of 'Jewish genes'.

These 'Jewish genes' were given to the Jat by the Pathans(Jews) who are the original Jews of the diaspora and who settled in Bactria long before there were any people known as 'Jats' , having been expelled from Israel by the Assyrian power in 720B.C. .The 'Jat' was born out of a fusion of Pathan(Jewish)-Ephthalite-Arabic-Dravadian blood.

On the whole therefore,the Pathan is the 'purest' of the lot being mainly Semitic (or Jewish) with comparatively little Dravadian admixture .The Jat,on the other hand, has mixed with the Dravadian to a fair degree .(just look at Ujjal Dosanj,Herb Dhaliwal,Sunny matrimonial pic. etc. etc.).In addition,he has some Ephthalite blood of 550A.D.('red read hats'),not to forget the Turkish and Arabic strains which were given to him after his defeat at the hands of the Arabs in 1026A.D.Thereafter,for 800 years ,every Tom,Dick and Harry Mogul ruled and pillaged the Jat,thoroughly saturating his blood even further..All in all,the Punjabi Jat of today is very 'Indianish looking' and is virtually indistinguishable from the Punjabi Chmar.(Pauria).

In any case,I'm waiting patiently for full-scale DNA tests by Westerners to be conducted on the whole bunch!That will clearly reveal how much Jewish and Dravadian strains each of these races has;possibly the Pathan will head the list with highest tendency towards 'Cohanim markers'.The Jat and Bruhi will top the list with the 'Dravadian gene' and the Baloch,no doubt, will fall in-between the two groups..Needless to say Jats are not pure 'Scythian', or this or that mumbo-jumbo.This much is very clear by now.

Adios Amigo......

Hi Facts, this comment was made to me from an Afridi Pathan – this is the general feeling people have of your folks:

“Put it this way, Jatts, Gujars, Rajputs and Pathans tend to be similar. We certainly can be differentiated from the numerous puny hindu man.

Hindu man is like Ghandi. Puny, weak and a coward. I hate cowardice.

Brave people are fine with me. I get on well with people who have similar attributes to myself.”

Best Wishes,

Hi Facts, there in no need to tell the Jats about feeble-mindedness – if your people were SMART they would not have been enslaved by Saka Haumavarka, Bactrian Greeks, Sakas, Kushans, Hepthalites, Ghanavids, Timurids, Moguls, and Brits! Where is there intelligence their – ringing bells to their gods! Your poor folks couldn't even cloth themselves. Regards,

Hi XXX,

You must be retarded.There have been many Brahmin kings throughout India's history.


.For example for starters,all Western scholars agree that Samudra Gupta and the Gupta dynasty were Brahmins.Further, the Shungas,Kanvas,Shetties,Mahashetties,etc. etc. were also Brahmins.Kautaliya was a Brahmin.So was King Porus.And others.


XXX,our history is based upon proper scholarship only;unlike yours and Dhillon's low grade mumbo-jumbo which is intended,no doubt, to con feeble minded folks like Sunny.

I mean, you don't get much more feeble minded than claiming 'General Mushraff Tarar is a Jat'!Perhaps that's why Roma are segregated into special schools for the learning disabled in Yugoslavia.

Humour me......

Hi Sunny,

Following is Aryan history from the Persian perspective.Please read it carefully!

Source:Rameen Moshreff,"History of Old Balkha”,Thomas Nelson Publishers,1999 ed..pp.34--37


Prof. Ramen Moshreff is a Harvard scholar.He says:--


pp.36-37

“..The Aryans came over and took control over Bactria.Their geographical location exposed them to all invaders, so they were in constant war. They also kept the worrier spirit alive. Their long time enemy was the Scytaians who lived to the North of Oxus and crossed over, from time to time, to loot the border villages.The Aryans dominated the technologically less developed Scythians-as did the Greeks,Romans and Gauls. These people lived simple lives and were not effected by the luxury which spoiled the Persian Empire.
In Persia, the Scythians were considered the most loyal SUBJECTS of the Empire....


Bactria was also a sacred place because of Zarathustra raised from that land. It is also the home of the authorship of many of the oldest hymns of the Zend Avesta and some of the Vedas. Bactrians were also famous for proverbial sayings. One example is: when speaking of Alexander, a Bactrian chief said: "His bark is worse than his bite: for still waters run deep"...."

pp.34--

"About four thousand years ago a collection of tribes known as the Aryans swept into South and West Asia - by a series of wave-like migration. Most historians divide there people into two groups, the Indo-Aryans and the Iranians ,although they are all from the Aryan race.First tribes were the Aryan tribe, which later were pushed down over the Paropamisus (mountains)into Panjab. The Iranians split into two sections, one section went West and founded settlements on the Tigris and Euphrates valley - which later became strong Kingdoms. Of this section, separated yet other tribes such as the Persians and the Medes. The Persians spread over the elevated lands of the Persian golf region.

Part 2

The Medes subdivided into smaller clans and occupied The land between the Caspian Sea to the land of Persis. The other section of the Iranians took the Easterly direction. They also pushed the Aryans before them to the mountains and settled on the banks of the Oxus. They made Bactra(modern Balkh) their capital, and seized the ancient shine of Bactra. Forming an aristocracy over the local people they lived in isolation. They had a swift cavalry which suddenly attacked the enemy from the slopes and quickly retired to their strongholds.
The Aryans and the Iranians of Bactria, had a lot in common. They spoke the same language, worshiped the forces of nature, such as: Varuna, the shining Vault of Heaven; Mithra, the friendly light of the sun; Vayu; the wind that pushes aside the storms and clears the heaven; Yama, the primeval man, reigning over the blessed souls in paradise. The powers of nature, to them, were the signs of something far more deeply interfused. In their ceremonies they also drunk the sacred Juice, Soma.These two races slowly drifted apart as time went on, for not known reasons. Although the history of early Bactria is vague, the historians gather that as early as the second millennium B.C., a powerful confederacy, centered in Bactria existed in South Central Asia. The confederacy was created to survive the influences of powerful neighbors such as the Persians,the Medes and the non-Aryans


Around 700 B.C., the Medes over came the Assyrian rule and over-threw that great empire. From the Ashes of Assyria arose two new nations. Babylon and Media. In 550 B.C. Cyrus the Great over threw the Medes and established the Achaemenid dynasty in Persia. In 538 B.C., the Persians took Babylon (freeing the Jews)and thus became masters of Western Asia. After the conquest of Babylon, Bactria submitted willingly to Cyrus and for the first time the whole "Iranian" division of the Aryan race were united under one ruler. Seeing the danger of the Scythian invasion, Cyrus stationed a blood prince to act as the kings Viceroy. The first of such royal representatives was Cyrus's own son, Smerdis (Tanoxyarces).Cyrus expanded his boundaries to the North and South. On a second invasion on the barbers (called Massu Getae) living between the Oxus (Amu) and Jaxartes (Sair) rivers, Cyrus was killed. After Cyrus Cambyses took power, and so continued to expand the Achaemenid dynasty.

In 356 B.C., in Macedon was born, to king Philip and Olympia's daughter Ofan Epirote prince, a son who was destined to over throw the feared Persia.Alexander, at age of twenty proved himself capable of commending in the battle of Thebes. From here he continued the preparation of the invasion of Persia, from where his father had left off.

Part 3

In 334 B.C., Alexander's 30,000 infantry and 5,000 cavalry in the battle of Grunicus won a decisive battle and set the stage to conquer Asia minor. Darius, the Persian king, retreated battle after battle, losing ground to Alexander - who followed the running monarch city to city. Finally, the king refuged in Bactria, where he was assassinated by his own people in the hope that Alexander would stop following Darius 2. Nonetheless, Alexander did go to Bactria and killed the murderer. Bactra the sacred city and the capital of Bactria was the last of the Persian Empire's provinces to fall. In 328 B.C.,while preparing for the conquest of Arabia, he died of malarial fever at the age of 32, in the Babylon desert. He left behind a great Empire which needed an Alexander to be organized into one nation.
Alexander's Empire fell into a war- zone for power. Three generals of Alexander took under their control, most of the Empire. They were Ptolemy, Antigonus and Seleucus. A whole series of events changed the shape of Asia. Constant war for power among Greeks converted most of Asia into a battlefield. I would like to skip over all that confusion and come to Diodotus 1.He was a satrap stationed at Bactria. When the Selucides became weak he became independent and remained so until his death in 230 B.C. A high official of Diodothus 1, Euthydemus, with the help of Queen's help came to power in 227 B.C. He was the real founder of an independent Bactria. In 208 B.C. the reigning Seleucid monarch Antiochus III gave his daughter to Euthydemus's son Demetrius. Euthydemus expanded his empire outward. He died in 189 B.C. and his son Demetrius took power. He continued to expand his rule. He ruled over a great area. Unfortunately his expansion was too much for his army and his treasury. In 167 B.C. a general of Antiochus Epiphanes (a Seleucid ruler),ruler of Syria and other Greeks, by the name Eucratides, invaded Bactria, defeated and killed Demetrius. Eucratides was probably killed by his son is 159 B.C. and ruled it along with Parthia. Menander I of India came to power and ruled over India and later, Bactria. He was a great ruler. Menander died around 145 B.C. Heliocles, a Greek of Asia minor came to claim Menander's throne, right after Menander's death. It was during this time that a horde from Central Asia over-run Bactria.
In the middle of third century B.C., Chin Shin Huang - Ti of the Chin dynasty reunited China and drove the nomads of outside the walls away. They moved Westward. The Yuch-Chi were defeated by Chins and Huns so moved Westward. Finally in 140 B.C., they over-run Bactria and Sogdiana. They left behind the Kushan dynasty of which, Kanishka is the greatest monarch...."

Good Luck,

P.S. Shiva was a Dravadian deity originally,it is over 5000 years old,according to all sane scholars--Hanna-Faye,Loganathan,Witzel etc.


Sunny,give up your mumbo-jumbo!

Hi XXX and Facts, have you ever ventured into the mythology of the defeated peoples? It is quite a job to make heads or tails of this stuff – it seems that they incorporated many foreign gods into their fold – some better than others.

For example, Shiva the Lord of Bhang and Surya (Oeto Syrus) left enough traces of their Scythic past.

However, other gods are more obscure – Who is Indra or son of Prithvi (Earth Goddess)? Why does he love drinking Soma (moon) daru? Why is Varuna associated with Soma?

Is Soma not Hauma in Persian? Saka Haumavarka? The Hauma (Soma) drink Virks? Best Wishes,

Hi Bahman Boy,

Here is a 64000 dollar question for you.

How come your people from the dawn of the CIVILIZED HISTORY OF your nation have been ruled by the foreigners?-- as Sunny has put it very well that "your history is the history of the foreigners"--JATS!

Please name a single ruler who belong to your own people prior to 1947.

By the way, I have great sympathy for you people.

Best wishes.

Sunny,

McCrindle thinks Chandragupta Maurya was from the Mor poshak peacock tanner caste.Prof. Spooner opines that he was a Persian Aryan.B.M. Bauria deliberates him to have originated from Gandhara country of Aryans .
On the other hand,absolutely NO ONE even suggests Chandragupta was a Saka because of common sense reasons.For example, Sakas(whome you wrongly think are Jats)did not even enter Bactria until 130B.C., long after Chandragupta was dead.

Prof. Spooner who evacuated Pataliputra was struck by his findings and writes in his article "The Zoroastrian Period of Indian History" as follows:

"For Chandragupta' s times, the evidences are more numerous and more detailed, and indicate a following of Persian customs all along the line - in public works, in ceremonial, in penal institutions, everything."

Good Luck,

I am bored.......





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

XXX,

One final thought for today:

Mccrindle's 'Malloi' are not 'Malhi' Jats.

Please refrain from similar sounding mumbo-jumbo theories.Bring the discussion to a much higher level than this.


Regards,

Sunny,

This is where the rubber meets the road!

Distinguished Western scholarship contends that Chandragupta Maurya originated from the Mor Poshak peacock tanner caste.In addition,ancient Jain and Buddhist sources lend further support to this claim.Archeology further strengthens this claim.
You on the other hand have the propoganda of ,well.... Dhillon(a Jat), to suggest that Chandragupta was a Jat.Nothing more!

source:Mccrindle,John Watson,1825-1913."Ancient India as described in the classical Literature."--Westminster constable,1901,pg.226.

"According to Jain tradition Chandragupta was the son of the daughter of the chief of a village of peacock-tanners.(Mayuria Posakh)....The peacock figures that appear in the emblem of the Mauryas in the ' punch marked coins' and sculptures testify this."

The ball is now firmly in your court Sunny.


Best Regards,

One more thing XXX,

The people you refer to as 'Mallians' were not Jats.No Western non-Jat scholar believes that.

.By this logic,we can also say that the 'Malti' or even the 'Balti' people who lived around this area also,could be these'Mallians'.
Similar sounding name theories are not good enough as they may be applicable to many different castes and peoples.

Remember,Dhillon's 'history' is at best a low grade propoganda campaign to uplift the self-esteem of the Jat peasant.
At worst it is intended to con the feeble minded people of the backward villages.

P.S. All Western scholars believe that 'Sakas'(whome you think are Jats)did not BEGIN entering Bactria and India until after 130B.C. ;250 years after Alexander,Chandragupta and Porus were all dead.

Regards,

Puru was a Kshatriya a Jat. This Aryan taught Alexander a lesson.

Hi XXX,
ref. your comment:"Alexander not only fought with the Jat Porus but also with Malli Jats. In fact, it was the Malli who almost killed him!"

Unfortunately, no proper scholar believes King Porus was a Jat.


I have told you many times before that Dhillon's 'history' is a very weak propoganda campaign to up-lift the self image of the peasant Jats who are classified as an OBC backward caste;Dhillon's 'mythic history' has nothing whatsoever to do with real chronicle.

P.S. Remember it goes against common sense to even suggest that King Porus was a Saka let alone that he was a Jat!


Regards,

Hi XXX, you forgot to mention the television sets so small that they fit on earrings – you’d think they could feed their poor if they had such advanced technology? Regards,

Hi Bahman Boy,


Alexander not only fought with the Jat Porus but also with Malli Jats. In fact, it was the Malli who almost killed him!


"According to Diodorus [30], "Alexander undertook a campaign against ---and the people known as Mallians, populous and warlike tribes---. At
length he (Alexander) was struck by an arrow below the breast and fell upon one knee, overborne by the blow. For many days the king lay
helpless under his treatment". Similarly, Arrian [23] wrote, "Alexander himself also was struck (with arrow), right through the corslet into his breast
over the lung---blood shot forth from the wound---for his wound, the first report reached the camp whence he had set out against the Mallians,
that he had died from the wound"

And Strabo (first century A.D.) [33] said, "It was in the country of the Malli that Alexander was in peril of death, being wounded in the capture of
some small city ---". Presently, Malli or Malhi is a Jat clan of Punjab and many Mallians still live close to the area identified by the Greek classical
writers. Furthermore, McCrindle [34] wrote, "The Malloi (Malli) occupied the district situated between the lower Akesines (modern Chenab river)
and the Hydraotes (modern Ravi river) which in Alexander's time joined the former river below Multan-a city (persently in Pakistan) which owes its
name to the Malloi (Malli)". This assertion is appeared to be correct, for example, the word "Hindustan" for India is composed of two words "Hindu"
and "Stan" (means place in Sanskrit) which literally means place where the Hindus live. In a similar manner it appears that the word "Multan" is the
shorter version of "Malli-Stan" (a place where Malli live)."

Hi Joshi,

Was it your Mahabart where donkeys used to fly aeroplanes? What happened to your advanced technology!


Best wishes to both.

XXX,

Known as 'Sara-Kali' by the Roma, Shiva/Durga is worshipped by Gypsies in France as the Black Virgin or Virgin Mary.

In India the Jats ofcourse worship this thing as Tejo-ji and pour prodigious amounts of milk on it.

**********This is a Forward*****************

Youdheya Rajaputs (Jats) were descendants of the one of the sons ofYudhisTira(Mahabharata -Pandava) and they fought against the expansion
of Kushans in Indian subcontinent.

Atpur inscription describes Guhil (Mewar's first prince) coming fromAnandpur(vadnagar). Guhil (566 AD) became powerful chieftain after
associating himself in young age with fierce mountain tribes known as Bhils.Descendants of Guhil were called Gehlots or Guhilots. The same
family later on took the name of Sisodia from the name of a local place.Not much is known about princes from Guhil to Bappa Rawal. It was during the reign of the grandson of BappaRawal-the mighty warrior Khumman II(813-833 AD)Chittorgarh was assailed by the Muslim force of Arab Caliphof Bagdad, Al-Mamun, the second son of Harun-al-Rashid. Thanks.

N.R.Joshi.

“At Hydasped the king Porus waited with a HUGE ARMY to stop Alexander, but the Macedonians soon defeated them...... “

http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/history/ancient/alexander.htm

Sunny,

Let's sweeten the pot even further!

Even if only 25% of king Porus's army were Sakas,that would mean approx. 17 000 Saka soldiers in India in 350B.C. A formidable army even by today's standards.(Not to forget the women,children and the infirm).Add to that the tens of thousands of Sakas in Chandragupta's armies and (their dependents) and we have a huge mass of Sakas in India.So we literally have scores of thousands of Saka soldiers in India 250 years before they are supposed to be there;ruling the Punjab,fielding great armies and fighting significant wars..On top of that,they have another 250 years to breed and multiply until 130B.C. rolls around !!

So why do Western scholars keep on insisting that Sakas BEGAN entering into India only around 130B.C.?Are they missing something?.Maybe they are not focusing enough on King Porus's spear!Remember Sunny, Alexander conquered the whole known World with 35 000,mostly Greek soldiers!

What say you Gypsy boy?

Bactria was also a part of Aryavarta. The Pala dynasty of Bacyria is famous to this day.The Jats originated in Aryavarta.

Sunny,

Following are common sense reasons why Dhillon's ideas regarding Porus and Chandragupta cannot be taken seriously.
Let's work from the premise that Jats are Sakas.


.Even if we say only about 50% of the soldiers in King Porus's HUGE army were Sakas,that means roughly 25000 Sakas .That's a HUGE number even by today's standards.Not to forget their women ,children,old folks ,mentally/physically unfits ..Also not to forget the Sakas in Chandragupta's huge armies(which were even larger) and their women and children etc..100's of thousands of Sakas in India 250 years before they are supposed to be there!.And ofcourse they would have multiplied and prospered for another 250 years in India.So by the time 130B.C. rolls around,we should have a least one million Sakas in India at least ,shoudn't we?? (The World population in 130B.C. was about 35-45 million people.)

So why do scholars keep on insisting that the BEGINNING of Saka settlements took place in India and Bactria only after 130B.C.?Are scholars missing something Sunny?They should immediately change the date of entry of Sakas into India to 350B.C. ,if we are to believe Dhillon's fairy tales.

Just to put things in perspective,Alexander's whole army was only about 35 000-40 000 men from start to finish, with which he CONQUERED the whole known World.


The fact is that there is NO evidence of Sakas in India prior to 130B.C. SIGNIFICANT enough to make a dent in India's history,let alone change it's history.


Humour me with an excuse Sunny.

Sunny,
One more thing...

I read Gen. McCarrison's full article which you furnished.Makes an interesting read.He too,like all the Brit. ethnologists , confirms that Pathans are Jews.

"The Pathans, therefore, are not the immediate neighbours of the Hunza, nor are they allied to them in race. The Pathans are in part Semitic, their neighbours, the Afghans, being yet more Semitic. The Pathans call themselves Beni-Israel, as descendants of the ten lost tribes of Israel."

The good Gen. distinguishes the Pathans racially from the 'Hunza'.I don't know too much about the Hunza?Interesting!I will find out.

By the way,I like the Sudanese 'fuzzy-wuzzy' action figures best!


P.S. Sunny do you still believe that 'Jats merge racially with the Pathans in the West ' and 'with the Baloches in the North'(remember your comment some time back!?) Just curious.

Regards,





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunny,

Once again you are using antiquated information to 'support' your views;this time a health report from 1925!("the relationship of diet to physical efficency").Science has progressed in leaps and bounds since the 1920's Sunny.We now have the real info. on the health of the Punjabi peasant,in particular.!

Do you know what 'syndrome X' is?You should!Following is a recent health report on the Punjabis (in particular the peasants).It provides alarming statistics !It must be doubly stressed that the following study was conducted mainly on the Punjabi peasants of village society.So it is a good indicator of the overall health of the Jat.

Here's the point:

http://www.healthlibrary.com/news/19_25_Aug/23_SyndromeX.htm


syndrome X

"..A study conducted on about 300 heart patients, spread over two years, has come out with some startling results, smashing old myths about the excellent health of Punjabis. The study says, Punjab is heading for a health catastrophe. Heart disease will soon take on epidemic proportions, if an awareness drive is not launched to bring about a change in lifestyles. Punjabis still consume saturated fats in the form of desi ghee, butter and refined sugars. The study has been conducted by a team from Tagore Heart Care and Research Centre, Jalandhar, headed by Dr Vijay Mahajan. Prof Jitender Mohan, Department of Psychology, Panjab University and Ms Meena Sehgal from the same department were also part of the team.

The study predicts that by the year 2015, cardiovascular diseases in Punjab would replace infectious diseases as a major killer. Another matter of great concern is the age group which is getting afflicted, which is 35 to 40 years. By 2015, heart disease will account for 34 per cent of all male deaths and 32 per cent of all female deaths. The most alarming situation is to rise in Punjab which has the highest incidence of heart disease in the country. In western countries, the disease is mostly seen beyond 55 years and with a greater severity. The study reveals that the risk factors among Punjabis are peculiar and different from those in Western countries. So the strategies to combat heart disease here have to be different. Smoking, high cholesterol levels and high blood pressure are some of the important causative factors in the West. But not so for Punjabis. Here obesity, especially fat around the abdomen, increased incidence of tendency towards diabetes mellitus, increase of a different type of fat in the blood known as triglycerides (and not cholesterol) and low amount of "good cholesterol" are the main causative factors. All these abnormalities, says the study, are collectively known as Syndrome X..."


P.S.By the way Sunny ,I'm glad you are learning about the 4000 year old Aryan Tarim mummies!

The Jats are invincible Kshatriyas. The Pathans are honourable people but not as strong in character as the Rajputs and Jats. Most Pathans were Hindus or Buddhists before the Arabs converted them to Islam mainly by force. While the majority of Rajputs and Jats resisted and the Jat-Sikh Ranjit Singh firmly defeated the Pathans. All Jats and Rajputs are of pure Aryan blood, while many Pathans (if not all) also have Arab blood. As Islam pushes integration.

Hi XXX, Jat Sikhs and Pathans – the greatest physique in India!

The Sikhs are not hillsmen, but belong to the river plains of the Punjab. They are a religious, not a racial community. The greater number of them are converted Jats. They are an independent people and admirable agriculturists. "In agriculture," wrote Captain Bingley, The Sikhs (1899) "the Jat-Sikh is pre-eminent. No one can rival him as a landowner or yeoman cultivator. He calls himself a Zamindar, or husbandman, as often as a Jat, and his women and children work with him in the fields. Indeed, it is a common saying in the Punjab that the Jat's baby has a ploughshare for a plaything."

The Sikh is up at dawn and at work in his field, taking a little food left over from the previous day before he leaves his home. About midday, when the sun gets powerful, his women bring him out a substantial meal of coarse ground wheaten chapattis smeared with butter, porridges of grains and pulses, vegetables, and when in season, raw, green gram or sarson. He washes all this down with copious draughts of spiced buttermilk, which he calls lassi. He takes a further substantial meal of similar foods at the end of the day's work. He eats sprouting gram. He eats fruit, though he cannot get the abundance of it which Hunza and Pathans get. He takes meat sparingly, sometimes freely.

He works hard, but he is spared the necessitous exercise which the mountains force upon the Hunza and Pathan. Nevertheless, he likes extra exercise in the way of sports and games. He is fond of running and jumping, lifting and tossing weights, throwing quoits, or wielding huge wooden clubs. When young he is fond of wrestling. But, as Bingley observed, the Jat-Sikh is usually too much occupied with agricultural labour to spare much time for games.

Such were the pick of the fighting men of India whom McCarrison associated with the Hunza in the perfection of their physique. "The Sikhs, the Pathans, and certain Himalaya tribes, than whom it would be difficult to find races, whether in the east or west, of finer physical development, hardihood and powers of endurance," he wrote in an article in The Practitioner in 1925, and then gave the premier place to the Hunza: "These people are unsurpassed by any Indian race in perfection of physique; they are long-lived, vigorous in youth and age, capable of great endurance and enjoy a remarkable freedom from disease in general."

It is clear in this article of 1925 upon "The Relationship of Diet to the Physical Efficiency of Indian Races" that McCarrison's review of the fighting had removed him from the conventional attitude of medical research to an overriding interest in healthy peoples. The question that now presented itself to his mind was: "How is it that man can be such a magnificent physical creature as the Hunza, the Sikh, or the Pathan?"

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoH2.html

Hi XXX, it seems that the Jat Sikhs have action figures attributed to them – I think the manufacturers wanted to include Bahmans, but they have no martial qualities and from their ancient dress it appears they would have to stock these at some novelty stores!

Note Pathan 3 & 4 Should be Sikh 1 & 2.

http://www.rengate.com/pages/muslims.html

Regards,

Hi Facts, yes I read Barber’s work about a year ago! Try the Tarim Mummies book. Regards,

Hi Bahman Boy,

With respect, I have absolutely no interest in the history( nor study) of the defeated people---nonetheless, I still feel sorry for them-- nothing ,I can do for their past misfortune.

Best wishes.

Hi Sunny,

Here's a new book by Prof. Elizabeth Barber tying the mummies to the Socketed Celt Horizon of 2000B.C. ,i.e..Aryan Brahmin Culture.

http://www.mummytombs.com/marker/books/world/urumchibarber.htm


THE MUMMIES OF ÜRÜMCHI

by Elizabeth Barber


US CA UK


"Unknown to many people, Caucasian mummies (dating from 2000 B.C.) have been found in western China, and this book takes a thoughtful look at some of them..

Barber is a textile expert (and an expert writer) who was able to study the mummies and their fabrics for a brief period of time. Through her vivid descriptions and explanations, the well-dressed (and quite colorful) mummies come back to life. The abundant (and therefore a true treasure trove) ancient textiles themselves, well preserved in the dry salty region, seem to suggest a related history to the Celts: yes, some of these mummies found in Asia were buried with Scottish-type plaid fabric.


Barber speculates that migrant tribes from the area that is present-day Iran moved east and west, taking with them their knowledge of sheepherding and weaving. They appear to have come to western China, Barber determined, in at least two different migrations, about 1000 years apart. From Ireland to Turkestan, what especially connects the tribes were their weaving techniques. ...."


P.S.: Sunny:Always remember ,recent DNA results by Western scholars have confirmed that Europeans have the same DNA as the Brahmins.The rest of the evidence is just gravy.
You see Sunny,,our Aryan history is based upon HARD FACTUAL science not on some vague and hopelessly contradictory comments by a few nineteenth century amateur British ethnologists!!

By the way,I hear that Johnny Depp is part Gypsy.Is that true?

XXX:As usual you are reduced to speaking gibberish.

Hi Bahman Boy,

How come the 2500 years of the Jat history is still standing very tall? You have to work hard at it to bring down to the level of your people!---

Best wishes.

Sunny,

Thanks for your information.

Hi XXX, I was reading Cunningham the other day – I think he draws parallels between Zalmoxais and Colaxais – the forefathers of Royal Scythes.

Facts: So how is Paul Bunyan’s - I mean Paurausramamama’s Axe doing – is it as sharp as the Jat khwara or gandasa?

I was watching a documentary of on LUCY and FLAT-FACE man – why don’t you tell them that it is Hanuman and his wife!? Also, what is your obsession with boiling ghee?

Regards,

Part 1

Prof. Bercovici was a distinguished American scholar who has since passed on.Following are his comments regarding the Jats.

source:Bercovici Konrad,"The Story of The Gypsies",
J.J. Little and Ives Company,New York,1928.
Chapter 2 pp. 10 ,sub- titled 'The Origin of The Gypsies':

Prof. Bercovici says:--

"In 1780,H.M.G. Grellman,a German philologist,collected a number of words spoken by the Gypsies,and found that a third of them were of Punjabi origin.Comparing the grammatical construction of the language of the Gypsies with the dialects spoken in India,he arrived at the conclusion that these wanderers came originally from India.Pursuing still further his studies among the principal dialects of India,Grellman discovered that the Surat dialect,spoken int the North West of India,was very much like the language spoken by the particular Gypsy
tribe he was studying.Subsequently studies pursued by other philologistsand travellers confirmed Grellman's opinion that the cradle of these wanderers known over the World as Tziganes,Zigeuner,Gypsies,Czigany,Zingari,Bohemians,was also that of the tribe of the Jats,living near the mouth of the Indus river.

Pott,Bataillard,Trumpp and Sir Richard Burton arrived at the conclusion that the relation between the language spoken by the Gypsies and the language spoken by the Jats of the Punjab today is so close that there could be no doubt that its root,in spite of all changes,lay in that dialect spoken in the North of India."

Part 1 continued....


"Attempting the solution at the same problem from a historical angle,De Gorje,another investigator,noticing that in Mohammaden chronicles there recurred frequently the name of a wandering tribe called Zotts,deduced that they were the same as Jats,and the Gypsies.

According to Arab authors and geographers,there lived in antiquity at the mouth of the Indus a tribe of roaming cattle-breeders,who raised their tents wherever their black water buffalo were grazing.The Arabs tried several times to conquer them,but were driven back every time,with heavy losses.

Under Walid 1,these Zotts agreed to terms of peace.The Arab ruler,however,realized after his alliance with these wandering tribes that their faithfulness was not to be relied upon;that they would neither obey or follow of their own volition.In the year 710 he took a great number of them captive and led them forcibly to the borders of the Tigris in Kurdistan.Six years later,under Yazid 2,a still greater number of captives were transported to Antioch with their cattle and tents.

A hundred years later,in 820,these Zotts had become so powerful,so insolent,they revolted against the Arab rulers who had imposed upon them.For fourteen years the rebels fought against the armies of the Arab princes sent to subdue them,inflicting the heaviest losses upon their erstwhile allies who had become their masters,raiding,pillaging and adjoining territory and capturing great booty.Men,women,and children fought with equal valor against their oppressors and betrayers who,after forcing them into an agreement of peace,had forcibly transported them hundreds of miles away from their home and attempted to break their independent spirits.

Arab chroniclers admit great valor of their foes;these Zotts were no mean fighters.Finally,in the year 834,Prince Motasim subdued the enemy after long and bloody warfare.Baghdad celebrated for three days the great victory over these wandering cattle-breeders.motasim passed through the gates of the great city,27 000 prisoners,men,women,and children,who were deported first to Khanikin,northeast of Baghdad,and then to Ainzarda.

In 856,the 'Romus" as the Byzantians were called,took
Ainzarba from the Arabs,taking the Zotts,with thent and cattle,as prisoners.

The year 856 is the approximate date of the appearance of the gypsies upon Byzantian territory.That the Byzantians were called Roums and that the Gypsies later called themselves roms is of great importance to those who want to know something about the Gypsies..."

Part 2:

Prof. Bercovici writes:--

"The Gypsies must have known the truth about their origin.Why have they not told it?What dark past were they so carefully hiding?.Humbled and despised by everybody,they consider themselves above all other nations,purer,cleaner,healthier,wiser,a race of kings and queens,with no peers on Earth,claiming that even today they RULE!

Grouped separately,and judged by laws entirely different from the laws of the Countries they find themselves in .....No more Draconian laws have been issued against any people than have been issued against the Gypsies.Wolves have been treated better than these people have been treated!Any yet,they are far from having been exterminated,FAR from being SUBDUED.They have bought gifts to the World.I speak of Gypsy music,of Gypsy songs,of Gypsy dance,of Gypsy color and rythm.

As for breaking the spirit of the Gypsy!Not in the least.And they are free..

But again,why have the Gypsies kept the secret of their origin....

The people of India are divided into four castes.The first caste is that of the Brahmins,the second that of the Kshatriyas,the third the Vaishyas,and the fourth the Shudra.those who have no caste are to this day in Hindustan as well as in Malabar known under the name Pariah.(author goes into detailed discussion of caste)
But the Shudras were to be servants of the other three castes.They were and are considereed impure and abject,and are employed to do the most impure and abject work.They are not permitted to touch the food to be eaten by the other three castes,or to touch anything that comes in direct bodily contact with anybody not of their caste.The Shudras are considered much lower than the upper three castes,and are required to turn their heads away when talking to a person of high caste,least their breath pollute that of their masters.The Jats have been persecuted by upper caste Hindus throughout their history in India.

Anthropologists have established by measurments of a number of heads that the Gypsies and the Jats are of one and the same origin;
If the head measurments alone were not convincing enough,the customs,morals,habits,and the great difference in diet would tend to clear up any doubts on the matter........ "

Regards,

The aryan Jats never arrived in Aryavarta but came from Aryavarta. You can not change the history of the great Aryan Kshatriyas the Jats.

XXX and Sunny,

Very bluntly:

.If there were 'splinter groups of Sakas' in India in 350B.C. how come Western scholarship continues to INSIST that 'Saka' settlements in Bactria and India BEGAN only around 130B.C.--140B.C.? Are scholars missing something boys?.

More specifically, if we accept the notion that there were 'splinter groups of Sakas' in India in 350B.C. SIGNIFICANT enough to CHANGE the course of Indian history ,how come Western scholars continue to INSIST on a date of 130B.C.?They should officially change the date of entry of Sakas into India to 350B.C.!

Good Luck---


Like I said before, Dhillon's book is simply a poor propoganda campaign to up -lift the self image of the down trodden Jat peasant;it is simply not based upon any real historical fact.

Hi Bahman Boy,

Please tell us the history of your Aryvarta or whatever where once donkeys or monkeys used to fly with rocket motors attached their tails! What an advanced technology! Please tell us your secret theories, so that NASA can save some money of US taxpayers!

Incidently, after the arrival of the Jats,your motherland has been poluted! Bad MALECHHA rulers!

Best wishes.

The aryan-Kshatriya Jats have their origins in Aryavarta, this is known without doubt.

Sunny,

Learn to use your common sense;don't believe in fairy tales.

For example,how could 'splinter groups' of Sakas(Jats in your eyes!)have accounted for the HUGE armies of both King Porus and Chandragupta Maurya?.

Specifically,if 'Sakas' were ruling the Punjab ,fielding huge armies and fighting great battles in India in 350B.C. it implies HUGE and FULL-SCALE Saka settlements in India at that time.How is it therefore that Western scholars continue to insist the BEGINNING of Saka settlements in India only around 130B.C. ?? Are they missing something Sunny?If Sakas changed the course of Indian history in 350B.C. how come scholars refuse to acknowledge this fact!?Infact as late as 200B.C.,according to Western scholars, it was the Greeks who were ruling Punjab.


More bluntly Sunny,how come NO ONE(except Jat writers) takes Dhillon's mumbo-jumbo seriously?....
I told you once before that Dhillon's 'history' is a rather poor propoganda campaign to uplift the self-esteem of the Jat peasant,it has nothing to do with real chronicle whatsoever.

Regards,

In any case,according to Prof. Steven Vali the famed linguist(Univ. of Lyden),the root language of Romani is Punjabi.Most contemporary scholarship subscribes to this point of view.

Proof:--


http://dmoz.org/Society/Ethnicity/Romani/desc.html


“
The root language of Romani is ancient Punjabi with loan words borrowed from the many countries the migrations of the Roma have taken them. The spoken Romani language is varied, but all dialects contain some common words in use by all Roma. “

Regards,

Hi XXX,

Punjabi is not the language of the Jats.Punjabi is a dialect of Hindi.

The Jats have NO language of their own though Prof. Pott ,Prof. Battalird and Dr. R.F. Burton have noted that ancient Jats originally spoke a lingo called 'Jatarki'(or language of the Jats).It was a mumbo-jumbo tongue with loan from virtually all surrounding languages.The Jats in Punjab adapted Punjabi from the Aryans just as the Afro-Americans adapted English.:

SIL code: JAT
ISO 639-2: inc


Comments Related to Jatarki. Spoken by the Jats of Pakistan and afghanistan.Different from Jadgali of Pakistan and related to Western Punjabi.

Regards,

Hi Guys,

Today, one of mine Canadian friends told me that in a recent census the language of the Jat warriors--Punjabi-- is fifth or sixth most widely spoken language in his country. The same individual also said that the defeated peoples lingo--whatever it is-- is not even mentioned in that census!

Best wishes to all.

Sunny,
Folowing are the most common stereotypes associated with the Roma Gypsy.You don't need a crystal ball to realize that these are the exact steretoypes associated with the Jats of North America also,especially in relation to gang violence:


http://www.mma.ro/database/eng/romanicris.htm


List with the most frequent verbs associated with the Roma :


aggressive,side arms,beating,brawler,clans,colored,knives,shotguns,street fights,mobsters,crowbars,revenges,swords,Gypsy mob head,viloence,armed robbery,thefts, crimial record etc.


Bravo Roma Chave !

Hi Sunny,

Following are more quotes from old British ethnologists.

R.F. Burton discusses the Jats/Gypsies.He also quotes Col. Sleeman and refers to Col. Dunsterville in the following discourse:

source:Burton, R.F., 'Sindh and the Races that Inhabit the Valley of the Indus', Reprinted by Oxford University Press,
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/DOCs/JG&EI_The_Gypsy_5.doc

Dr. Burton writes:--

"We find the Jats well and copiously described as early as 1835 by Lieutanent-Colonel W.H. Sleeman.He calls them Jats,with a long vowel,and treats them everywhere as low caste,or rather no-caste Hindus.Their original habitat was upon the Indus about Multan,and thence spread to the Jumna and the Chumbul valleys.They were alternately robbers and peaceful peasants until about 1658 when they plundered the ill-fated Dara Shikoh and expended vaste sums in building Bharatpur..Fate,however was against them....The Jats are still half nomads,and perhaps of old they were fully nomadic.They are breeders of cattle and rude veterinary surgeons.They are fond of Music;AND THEIR DANCES ARE EXACTLY REPRESENTED BY THOSE OF THE EGYPTIAN GYPSIES,a similarity which has yet to be insisted upon.Their ironsmelting,like that of the Mahabaleshwar tribes,IS EXACTLY LIKE THAT OF THE ROMA.Their swordplay is that of the Hindu,whereelse the Gypsies in Scotland use a direct thrust straight to the front,certainly not learnt in India.The village Jats are said to mould the babies' heads.Divination seems to be the growth of the soil,and palmistry palpably derives from India.SNAKE-CHARMING IS ALSO COMMON AMONG THEM.As their history in the Panjab proves,they are disposed to robbing and to violence...Able linguists like Lieutanent Colonel Dunsterville,colector of Hydrabad,and others were willing to assist me in the spring of 1856 to illustrating their ethnology and philology."

What say you Gypsy boy??.You don't need a crystal ball to realize that Jats and Roma are the same people.

P.S. How's the Bhangara dancing coming along Sunny?

The Aryan Jats suferred reverses but never gave in AND ALWAYS EMERGED VICTORIOUS EVENTUALLY. Many people call themselves Jats but are actually not Jats. The Jats are Kshatriyas (with many common Gotras with Rajputs) who are a Brave and Noble people and are invincible.

Oh one more thing,

Talking about 'defeated people'.The Jats are the ultimate 'defeated people'.

.Jats are OBC Shudra receieving charity from the Indian govt.
.Most janitors in North America are Jats.
.Jats practise Fraternal polyandry and other disgusting customs, etc...

I'm bored .....

Hi Sunny,

How are you my favourite Gypsy friend?


You say:"Hi Facts, why don’t you reread my post instead of jumping to conclusion – this paragraph by Mallory and Mair is regarding Yuezhi – not the Mummies. "

.Re-read what Mallory says about the tribes remaining in Central Asia after 800B.C. after 800B.C. ,they aren't Europeans :

“...large groups of Europeans were present in the Tarim Basin long BEFORE the area's present inhabitants, suggesting that TURKIK speakers did not move into the area until about the EIGHTH century B.C.”

.Sunny,by 800B.C.,according to Mallory, these Europeans in Central Asia had been REPLACED by the Turkik speakers who could very well be the forefathers of the Yue Chi .That's why the mummies are 4000 years old stupid.In anycase if you claim to be a 'saka' you cannot also be Yue Chi as well as they are separated by over 700 years in the timeline of history;different culture,different history etc.


"Also, where does Mallory say “Axe of Paurasrama” "

.Sunny,read these words of Mallory in the very next sentence:;"typified by socketed bronze celts (axes which have bent wooden handles inserted at the end opposite the blade)..."

.And finally there is an old saying,"It's in the blood".I guess in our modern World it is more correct to say;"it's in the DNA."
The Brahmins and Europeans share the same DNA .That has already been PROVEN by Western scientists!The rest is just dressing.I mean even the Jews dispersed throughout the World for thousands of years can trace back their 'Cohanim markers' and common origins.DNA is a very powerful weapon my friend,the 'axe of Pasrurama' so to speak.!

The ultimate proof, Sunny boy, is in the DNA,not in the views of Mallory or Witsel or William Jones,though they are/were all on the right track.!


P.S. I am confident that a comparison of DNA results of the Punjabi Chmar and Punjabi Jat will show that they are 'blood(DNA) brothers'.Blood tests have already shown that Roma are brothers to the Jats and Rajputs.By the way,I thought the favourite weapon of the Jats was a spear,now it's an axe.(you're a joker Sunny .That's for sure.)

Muchos Gracias Vato!





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi XXX, I second your additional comment and add:

THE HISTORY OF INDIA IS A HISTORY OF DEFEATS!

Hi Facts, why don’t you reread my post instead of jumping to conclusion – this paragraph by Mallory and Mair is regarding Yuezhi – not the Mummies.

Also, where does Mallory say “Axe of Paurasrama” who in the world was this fool? How did he get to the Tarim Basin on Hanuman’s back? What keeps me from putting (Axe of Paul Bunyan) there! Darn right dishonest.

You don’t make any sense everyone knows that one favorite weapon of the modern Jat is a Gandasi and the Khuwara! Ikk tak marke Taun ladun! And Pandits is prayer to appease the gods! Hai Ram!

The Hindus of Hindostan

“Indian women did not generally use an upper garment is indicated by the nudity of the breasts widely represented in the early art of India. If some sewn garments like Kurpasa and Coli had been in actual use, there would be some representation of it in the huge volume of sculptures. Significantly, in the Mahabharat also, women appear as wearing a single garment.”

Thapliyal, U.P, Foreign Elements in Ancient Indian Society 2nd Century BC to 7th Century AD, Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, Delhi, 1979.

The Hindus of Western Countries

“Indian women did not generally use an upper garment is indicated by the nudity of the breasts widely represented in the early art of India. If some sewn garments like Kurpasa and Coli had been in actual use, there would be some representation of it in the huge volume of sculptures. Significantly, in the Mahabharat also, women appear as wearing a single garment.”

Thapliyal, U.P, Foreign Elements in Ancient Indian Society 2nd Century BC to 7th Century AD, Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, Delhi, 1979.

What say you, defeated boy??.

Regards,

Hi Sunny,

You have put it very well "The History of India is the HISTORY of FOREIGNERS" And the history of India's ancient rulers is the HISTORY OF THE JATS---my contribution!

Regards.

Sunny;

Aryan Invasion Theory confirmed by Mallory .By the way,Dhillon's mumbo-jumbo is totally debunked by this scholar:


J. P. Mallory, "In Search of the Indo-Europeans “, p. 59-61, London (1989).


Mallory says;

"..Actually, evidence of a now-extinct Indo-European Sanskrit speaking people who lived in Central Asia has long existed. Known as Tocharians, they are described more accurately as Arsi, which is cognate with Sanskrit Arya and Old Persian Ariya, meaning "Aryan": "that which is noble or worthy." Their language, which has similarities to the Celtic and Germanic branches of the Indo-European tree …”


“…Significantly, the Tarim Basin mummies have provided further evidence which supports Heine-Geldern's theory. Some of the grave goods found with the mummies strongly suggest a connection with the "socketed celt horizon,"(Axe of Parsurama!) typified by socketed bronze celts (axes which have bent wooden handles inserted at the end opposite the blade) and other distinctive bronze objects, such as knives with zoomorphic handles. The "socketed celt horizon" is dated roughly 1,800 to 1,000 B.C. stretching across Europe and correlates well with certain facets of a horse-riding and chariot/cart culture which emphasized hunting with composite bows and perhaps crossbows….”


“...large groups of Europeans were present in the Tarim Basin long before the area's present inhabitants, suggesting that Turkic speakers did not move into the area until about the eighth century B.C.”(Sunny,by 800B.C. these Europeans were REPLACED by the Turkik speakers.This proves that,if anything,Jats could very well be related to Turks. .)


“…As one academic, James Opie, an expert on design motifs in ancient rugs and bronze implements, has pointed out, it is highly significant that Celtic endless-knot motifs, swastikas, and animal-style decorations have been discovered from Europe, through Iran, to China. The religion of the Celts----was solar, and three- and four-armed swastikas as solar symbols are an omnipresent element in Celtic art. Likewise, the Tarim Basin Europeans displayed a definite penchant for spiral solar symbols, painting them on their faces and engraving them on the bridles of their horses. This in itself suggests that they were Nordics who were and always have been worshippers of the sun and sky, and more generally of Nature. As Dr. Michael Puett, a historian of East Asian civilization at Harvard University, has argued, the Tarim Basin mummies reveal clear processes of a CULTURAL DIFFUSION FROM EUROPE OUTWARD.”

Sunny,why does Dhillon suggest that 'scythians' diffused into Europe around 500B.C. from Central Asia?

.Remember Sunny,your friend Malik,he is saying that 'Scythians' and 'Sarmatians' gave the Germans their 'chinky looks'!Could be right.
You guys are a bunch of clowns.

Hi Sunny,

I'm bored!!...Hey,since you love to quote from old British ethnologists like Todd and Cunningham,here's one more for you.He's listed as a must read source on Jat history by XXX.

source:Burton, R.F., 'Sindh and the Races that Inhabit the Valley of the Indus', Reprinted by Oxford University Press,


Dr. Capt. R.F. Burton says;--

"The Jats of Belochistan

"The following interesting extract is borrowed from "The Country of Balochestan",by A.W. Hughes.(London,1877)It appears to be a fact that the Jats in some places preserve the calling of itinerant Gypsies and this more particularly in Afghanistan;and it is not unlikely that some affinity in their language and habits might very possibly be traced between them and the vagabond races of Zingaris which are spread over so large a portion of Europe."


The Jats of Punjab

"The Panjabi Jat,is neither Hindu nor Muslim.He appears first in Indian history as a nomad,alternately shepherd,robber,and temporary tiller of ground.Many became Sikhs,and did good service to Nanak's faith by their zealous opposition to Muhammadan bigotry.The mediaeval Gypsy shows family resemblences,physical and moral,ethnological and linguistic,with the modern Jats,a highly important race,which extends from the mouth of the Indus."

What say you,Gypsy boy??.

What is true is that the Jats have their origin in ancient Aryavarta.

Sunny,

James P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair DO NOT say that the mummies are Jats.Infact quite the opposite.We have been through this discussion before Sunny!

Good Luck,

Hi Facts, compare these FACTS:

Arnold Toynbee said:

“It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribes as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab.”

Toynbee, A. A Study of History, Volume 2, Oxford University Press, London, 1939, p.435.

James P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair in Tarim Mummies:

Da (Greater) Yuezhi or in the earlier pronunciation d’ad-ngiwat-tieg has been seen to equate with the Massagetae who occupied the oases and steppelands of West Central Asia in the time of Herodotus; here Massa renders an Iranian word for “Great”, hence “Great Getae” (alternately, Massagetae as been divided as mah “great” + saka-ta “Saka”, i.e. “Great Saka”). Others have seen in this word an attempt to capture in Chinese the name of a tribe that is rendered in Greek as the Iatioi who are recorded in Ptolemy’s geography. The original pronunciation has been reconstructed as gwat-ti or got-ti or gut-si, which opens up distant lexical similarities with the Goths (the German tribes of northern and eastern Europe), the Getae (the Dacian, i.e. Balkan, tribes northwest of the Black Sea), the Guti (a people on the borderlands of Mesopotamia), the Kusha (our Kushans), the Gushi (a people mentioned in Han texts and regarded as brigands along with the peoples of Kroran), or a combination of some but not all of the above.

Mallory, J.P & Mair, V.H., The Tarim Mummies, Thames & Hudson, Ltd. London, 2000, pp. 98-99.

You have admitted Mallory and Mair as the world’s leading anthropologists! What do you think these guys would have to say about the Jats?

Remember the only people that are downtrodden are yourselves - The History of India is the HISTORY of FOREIGNERS! Regards,

Hi XXX and Sunny,

XXX:

You are not using your common sense.

ref. your comment;

"It appears certain that there were splinter
groups of Scythians already in Punjab prior to the arrival of the Alexander, even though the BULK of them settled in Punjab LONG AFTER Alexander's
time."


.Now, first of all, the idea that there were 'splinter groups of Sakas(Jats in your eyes)' in Punjab prior to the arrival of Alexander is a very weak hypothesis.MOST Western scholars do not hold to this point of view.

.Secondly, and much more importantly, how could 'splinter groups of Sakas' make up the HUGE armies of both Chandragupta Maurya and King Porus in 350B.C.?Remember as later as 200B.C. it was the Greeks who were ruling the Punjab!Sakas hadn't even attacked Bactria yet!Don't forget,your own quote says that the BULK of 'scythians' entered India LONG AFTER the death of Alexander the Great!


Sunny;

"Hi Facts, why are the Jats and Dahiya listed as one of the 36 Royal Races of Rajasthan? Thanks,"

Why is there a tribe called Dashia among the Yadus?


"Hi Facts, you are not making any sense, why did Arnold Toynbee say the following?: "

.Why do you keep on quoting one or two statements from the 1930's,without providing support for your claims from contempoorary scholarship?.


Basically,Dhillon's mythic history is designed to uplift the self-esteem of the down trodden Jat peasant;nothing more and nothing less.


P.S. Definition of 'Splinter':

The Canadian Oxford dictionary,Oxford University Press:

splinter .n 1 a SMALL thin piece broken off from something much larger.

2 splinter group vtr. a small group or party that has broken off from a much larger one.

Hi Bahman Boy,

It appears that you have ovelooked to read the following statement by Dhillon--- in those four posts of mine--

"It appears certain that there were splinter
groups of Scythians already in Punjab prior to the arrival of the Alexander, even though the bulk of them settled in Punjab long after Alexander's
time."

Best wishes.

Hi Facts, why are the Jats and Dahiya listed as one of the 36 Royal Races of Rajasthan? Thanks,

Hi Facts, you are not making any sense, why did Arnold Toynbee say the following?:

“It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribes as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab.”

Toynbee, A. A Study of History, Volume 2, Oxford University Press, London, 1939, p.435.

Also regarding Saka presence in India prior to Alexander – refer to Chattopradya or Aggarwal – or better yet your countries best – A.K. Narain.

All concrete proof points to the fact that the Aryan Jats always lived in Aryavarta.

Hi XXX,


Timeline Problem:


Dhillon provides VERY WEAK arguments to show that 'Sakas' were in India in 350B.C. or before.He knew he was threading on very shaky ground, so he admitted the following thereby completely contradicting his whole initial thesis:

"Generally, historians regard the BEGINNING of settlements of the Scythians in Punjab AFTER the defeat of the Bactrian Greek rulers by the Scythians (Sakas)." (130-50B.C.


Basically Dhillon relies on mumbo--jumbo similar sounding theories to 'prove' his point:

.Dhillon says the people of 'Malli' are from the Jat clan of 'Malhi'.By this logic,the Yadus who have a clan name 'Dashai' could also be the 'Dahai' of Alexander's army etc.By the way Mccrindle DOES NOT link the people of Malli to the Jats.


.Dhillon also says 'Sibians' and 'Dahai' are Jats with no support from scholarship..But even so, these tribes were in Alexander's army and not in Porus's.They were NOT in India in 326B.C. but mecenaries from outside of India.

.Dhillon quotes Latif about 'a branch of Scythians in India around 600B.C.' but this view on the lunatic frienges is not held by scholars.Latif is not a Western scholar.

.Dhillon finally quotes some vague statement from Todd about 'Takshas' ..So what.?


Lets cut to the chase;, the above statements even if accepted,do not suggest a HUGE 'Saka'(Jats in your eyes) presence in India prior to 130B.C. So how could 'Sakas' have fielded HUGE armies in India during the time of Alexander?
And always remember ,'Sakas' only came into India after 140-130B.C. according to ALL Western contemporary scholars.

How could Porus and his HIGE armies,Chandragupta Maurya and his VASTE legions be 'Sakas'? This implies a very HUGE presencce of Sakas in India in 350B.C. --and not some small scale trade relations or imagined 'Malli Jat' tribe supposedly residing by the banks of the Indus .


Basically when people fail to find support from mainstream scholarship for their crazy views,they invariably turn to crackpots(like Latif) for their 'history'.

That's the way the cookie crumbles!Dhillon's mumbo-jumbo holds no water.

XXX,

Thanks for the three part mumbo-jumbo from Dhillon's book:

Dhillon says:"The fact of the matter is that Porus was over 6 and half feet tall and Arrian [23] writes that most Indians (most likely he means in the North-West,
the Greek invader encountered) are of this height..."

By this silly logic,Shaka Zulu must have been a Jat also because he was 6'6inc. tall.And Maharaja Ranjit singh could not have been a Jat because he was only 5ft. 5 inc. tall!

Also Dhillon provides NO convincing evidences to prove that there were LARGE SACLE Saka settlements in India and Punjab in 350B.C..Infact he admits that most scholars believe Saka settlements in India only began after the demise of the Bactrian Greek kingdoms.

The guy is contradicting himself.


Good Luck old B.,

Hi XXX,

Why then does Dhillon make the folowing admission:


"Generally, historians regard the BEGINNING of settlements of the Scythians in Punjab AFTER the defeat of the Bactrian Greek rulers by the Scythians (Sakas)."

Good Luck,

All credible people accept that Jats originated in Aryavarta. So how can you change the history.

PART IV

The fact of the matter is that Porus was over 6 and half feet tall and Arrian [23] writes that most Indians (most likely he means in the North-West,
the Greek invader encountered) are of this height. The Roman historian Curtius [36] writes that the Dahae (Dahyia Jats) were a head taller than the
Greeks (Macedonians) and Alexander built beds five cubits long in the camp on the Hyphasis (modern Sutlej river) [30]. According to Professor Rolle
[5], "Anthropological information available to us so far indicates that the Scythians were relatively tall. This tallness is particularly noticeable in
warrior burials---. They are often over 6 ft, sometimes over 6 ft 3in and occasionally 6ft 6 in".
In addition, Ammianus Marcellinus [17] wrote, "Moreover, almost all the Halani or Alani (a branch of Jats or Scythians) are tall and handsome---".
This fits very well the description of Porus by Arrian [23] "the great size of Porus, who was over five cubits in height, and his handsomeness, and
the appearance ---". With respect to the Scythian descendants, the Jat Sikhs, Major Barstow [29] said, "The Jat Sikh is generally tall and muscular,
with well shaped limbs, erect carriage, and strongly marked and handsome features. The Jat Sikhs have always been famous for their fine physique
and surpassed by no race in India -----".
These evidences certainly further strengthened the belief that Porus belonged to the Jat background. It appears certain that there were splinter
groups of Scythians already in Punjab prior to the arrival of the Alexander, even though the bulk of them settled in Punjab long after Alexander's
time.
During the battle with Porus, Alexander had a substantial number of Scythians or Jats with him. For example, Arrian [23] indicates, "Alexander
himself selected the special squadron the companions, ------and the cavalry from Bactria and Sogdiana, the Scythian horsemen (Jats?), with the
Dahae (Dahiya Jats), mounted archers----". This proves very well Dahiya's earlier contention that during the battle between Alexander and Porus
Jats fought against each other. "

You see that your friend Dhillon even quotes the works of many your brothers!

What a great Jat warriors' history!

Best wishes

PART III

And Strabo (first century A.D.) [33] said, "It was in the country of the Malli that Alexander was in peril of death, being wounded in the capture of
some small city ---". Presently, Malli or Malhi is a Jat clan of Punjab and many Mallians still live close to the area identified by the Greek classical
writers. Furthermore, McCrindle [34] wrote, "The Malloi (Malli) occupied the district situated between the lower Akesines (modern Chenab river) and
the Hydraotes (modern Ravi river) which in Alexander's time joined the former river below Multan-a city (persently in Pakistan) which owes its name
to the Malloi (Malli)". This assertion is appeared to be correct, for example, the word "Hindustan" for India is composed of two words "Hindu" and
"Stan" (means place in Sanskrit) which literally means place where the Hindus live. In a similar manner it appears that the word "Multan" is the
shorter version of "Malli-Stan" (a place where Malli live).
The classical writers Arrian [22] and Diodorus [30] observed that there were two Porus: "For this Porus, as long as Alexander's relations had
remained unfriendly towards the first Porus, had sent envoys to Alexander----," "word came to Alexander that King Porus (a cousin of the Porus who
had been defeated) had left his kingdom ---". Also, in Professor Sinha's [35] words "Poros is a dynastic name". Dahiya [29] observed "As is common
knowledge, the suffix 's', 'es', 'os', or 'us' are added to personal names by the Greeks, in the same manner in which the suffix 'ka' is added to clan
names by the Indian writers. By ignoring this 'os' ('us'), the name of the hero remains Por----. It is a clan name and this clan is still existing among
Indian Jats and is called Por or Phor. They are found in the Karnal district of Haryana, India".
Indirect support to Dahiya's assertion is provided by Professor Sinha [35] who said, "According to Dr. Buddha Prakash (a well known Indian
researcher of ancient history) it is likely that the Pururavas Aila, the son of a ruler who migrated from Bactria in Central Asia to mid-India, has
something to do with the Pauravas settled in the North-West. In this way the Aila conqueror is associated with that very region in which Poros gave
a hard fight to Alexander---". Another factor suggesting Porus is a Jat could be his height. For example, Arrian [23] and Diodorus [30] say: "great
size of Porus, who was over five cubuits in height" and "He (Porus) was himself outstanding in bodily strength beyond any of his followers, being five
cubits in height---". Five cubits are translated into seven and half feet by some historians and 6 and half by others.

PART II
In any case historical records provided by the ancient Greeks (Arrian [22] 95-175 A.D., Diodorus [30]-published around B.C. 49, Plutarch [31] A.D.
45-120) concerning Alexander the Great's invasion of the Punjab indicates that the Scythians or Jats were already there. For example, Diodorus [30]
wrote, "he (Alexander) disembarked his soldiers and led them against the people called Sibians. They say that they are the descendants of the
soldiers who came with Heracles ----. They were brought before the king (Alexander), renewed their ties of kinship, and undertook to help him----".

Professor Eggermont [32] observed "J.P. Vogel showed that the mound of Shorkot (Jhang district, Pakistan, between Chanab, Indus, and Ravi rivers)
represents the site of Sibipura, the town (pura) of the Sibis, which is mentioned in a Shorkot inscription". Furthermore, Dahiya [29] has provided
ample evidence of Sibis being Jats. In addition, Sibia is a Jat clan name and there are still many Jats in Punjab who belong to this division. According
to Diodorus [30], "Alexander undertook a campaign against ---and the people known as Mallians, populous and warlike tribes---. At length he
(Alexander) was struck by an arrow below the breast and fell upon one knee, overborne by the blow. For many days the king lay helpless under his
treatment". Similarly, Arrian [23] wrote, "Alexander himself also was struck (with arrow), right through the corslet into his breast over the
lung---blood shot forth from the wound---for his wound, the first report reached the camp whence he had set out against the Mallians, that he had
died from the wound".

Hi Kheer Khane Bahman,

Here is what Dhillon wrote on Scythians( in many parts) prior to the arrival of Alexander :

PART I

"Scythians in India

According to Latif [26], Dr. J. Hunter said, "A branch of these Scythian hordes, having overrun Asia about 625 B.C., occupied Patala on the Indus
(river), the modern Hyderabad in Sindh (presently in Pakistan)". Another writer, Professor Pettigrew [27] says, "Another view holds that the Jats
came from Asia Minor and Armenia in the successive invasions during the period 600 B.C. to A.D. 600". Col. Tod [27a] writes, "The Naga or Takshac
(Snake) race, so well known to India, the Takshacs or Takiuks of Scythia, invaded India about six centuries before Christ". Furthermore, in
Woodcock's [28] view, there were already Greek settlements prior to the arrival of the Alexander the Great in Punjab. Furthermore, Dahiya [29] says
the Jats fought against each other during the battle between Alexander and Porus (a king of a region in the north-west Punjab).
There appears to be some degree of truth to this issue even if it is examined from a logical standpoint. Firstly, if the Greeks, from thousands of miles
way could have had settlements in Punjab prior to the arrival of Alexander the Great, as per Woodcock [28], it would be illogical to think that the
Scythians (Sakas or Massagetae), living just to the north-west borders of India, according to the Classical Greek historians such as Herodotus [8]
and Diodorus (first century B.C.) [30], did not penetrate into India. In fact, Scythians were basically a nomadic people and accomplished horse
riders, making them more likely than the Greeks to have penetrated into Punjab. Furthermore, Herodotus tells us that the Scythians from the north
of the Black Sea region invaded territories as far as Egypt in the seventh century B.C. and it looks quite improbable that their cousins, "mighty" [15]
Jats or Massagetae, would have left India untouched in those times. Also, we should not forget here that it was the Massagetae who pushed their
own people the "Scythians" towards the west [8].

Infact when the Hindu Mauryan Empire began to disintegrate,it was the Bactrian Greeks who seized the opportunity to invade parts of North India and ALL of the Punjab..Sakas were not even in the picture for another 100 years EVEN after the disintegration of the Mauryan Empire ;they came only around 130B.C.Read any reliable history book and you will get the SAME information.This is a non-issue.

Prof. Robert Hand says:


"Originally intended to defend the Eastern satrapies of the Seleucid empire from the Mauryans and other powers in the East, Bactria seceded around 250 BC, when the Parthians severed communications from the rest of the empire. ....

About 200 BC, Demetrios 1 started the conquest of the Indo-Kush and North-East India, establishing the Graeco-Indian (or Indo-Greek) Kingdom. Starting in 190 BC, Demetrios' sons governed together the new kingdom which expanded progressively to all the Punjab. One of the Greek rulers of Bactria, Menander (155 - 130 BC), conquered much of Northern India and, under the name Milinda, became one of the most revered figures of Buddhism.

In 170 BC, Eucratides overthrew Demetrios 2 and Antimachos 2 in the name of the Seleucids and took control of the kingdom. He was murdered about 145 BC by his son Eucratides 2 and at the same time, nomadic tribes, which occupied Southern Bactria, crossed the river Oxus and began the dissolution of Greek domination in Bactria. The kingdom was finally overrun by the Sakas about 130 BC, and then by the Kushans, an offshoot of the Yeuh-chi clan from western China...."


Sunny,that's the way the cookie crumbles man!

The point remains the Jats who are Kshatriyas (and even have common gotras with Rajputs the other Kshatriyas) have their origin in Aryavarta. See the map of Aryavarta in Chandragupta Maurya's time. It included a substantial part of Central Asia including Afghanistan and also parts of Iran. If Alexander had won why did he suddenly decide to go back home after his battle with Puru? The answer is self-evident.

Sunny,

"At Hydasped the king Porus waited with a HUGE army to stop Alexander, but the Macedonians soon defeated them."

http://www.in2greece.com/english/historymyth/history/ancient/alexander.htm

So if Porus and his army were Sakas(Jats according to you),it implies a HUGE presence of Sakas in India in 350B.C. AT THE EARLIEST; not just some low level trade connections here and there, as you seem to suggest.Not to mention Chandragupta and his large armies ,who according to you, were also Sakas!

So how come Western scholarship is UNANIMOUS in concluding that Sakas BEGAN entering India only after 130B.C.,long after both Porus and Chandragupta were dead and cremated? Even Dhillon is forced to admit this.


I am bored with your simplistic line of reasoning Sunny b. .....

P.S. I suggest you write a Phd. to refute all the Western scholars .Don't forget to mention your groundbreaking discovery;that Porus was a Saka because he carried a spear!I'm sure that's the clincher!

This is called low-class mumbo-jumbo.

Sunny,

If Chandragupta Maurya and his countless legions,Porus and his mighty armies were all 'Sakas'(Jats as you say);it implies a very significant Saka presence numbering in the millions(including women and children) in India as early as 350B.C.This is no small scale 'trade relationship' my friend!


Is Western scholarship missing something Sunny?.
Why therefore does every Western scholar continue to insist the BEGINNING of Saka settlements in India and Bactria after the disintegration of the Greek principalitires.(130-50B.C.)In 350B.C. Sakas had still NOT been expelled by the Yue Chi from Central Asia,according to Chinese and Western sources.
Even Dhillon is forced to admit this fact:

"Generally, historians regard the BEGINNING of settlements of the Scythians in Punjab AFTER the defeat of the Bactrian Greek rulers by the Scythians (Sakas)."(i.e. after 50B.C.!)


Why NO ONE believes your's and Dahiya's mumbo-jumbo Sunny,not even Dhillon in his heart?

The Jats originated in Aryavarta. Puru seems to have given Alexander a bloody nose. That is why Alexander went back. The Kshatriya Chadragupta Maurya defeated Seleukus.

The million dollor question:

Sunny,

You contend that Porus was a 'Saka' together with his scores of thousands of men in arms.(Infact Porus's army was the biggest ever fielded by an Indian King up until that time!)You also claim Chandragupta Maurya and his vaste legions to have been 'Sakas'('Sakas' ofcourse equals 'Jats' in your eyes).


Now then Sunny,obviously this implies a very very significant Saka presence numbering in the 100's of thousands in India and Punjab in 350 B.C.Not to forget the women and children. This is NO small scale 'trade relationship' as you claim in your last post ,but a full fledged occupation of North India by 'Sakas' 250 years BEFORE they are supposed to be there.--So much so that they are able to field legions of men in arms into battle.

Why then do Western scholars continue to insist 'Sakas' occupied India only AFTER 130B.C?.Is proper scholarship misssing something Sunny? Would you like to share your new theory with us Sunny boy?

More bluntly,why doesn't any serious person agree with your mumbo-jumbo,?


Good Luck indeed.

Sunny,

Here's the clincher:

These are Dhillon's words now: "Generally, historians regard the BEGINNING of settlements of the Scythians in Punjab AFTER the defeat of the Bactrian Greek rulers by the Scythians (Sakas)."(i.e. after 50B.C.!)

However, he then contradicts himself by saying that Jats were in India in Porus's army in 320B.C.!


Mumbo-jumbo history.

Sunny,


You say:"there was a Jat ruling dynasty at Salindrapur as early as A.D. 409"

Nonsense!,but even this statement,if accepted, doesn't come close to affecting the argument that Jats could not have been in India around 320B.C.


You then go on to say,"...That leaves just the Sakas and Yue Chi ."

Sunny,that's just the point.

Even if we concede that Jats were 'Sakas'(which is clearly impossible) you still are short 200 years from the time of Alexander the Great!...When the 'Sakas' and 'Yue Chi' first made contact with India,Porus and Chadragupta Maurya were long since comfortably dead and cremated.

Good Luck,

Timeline problem my friend.

Sunny,

You say:"Hi Facts, Barstow also contends this in 1928. Now, prove ME Wrong! "

.Sunny,do you know what contemporary scholarship means?Barstrow is NOT a contemporary Western scholar.

You say:"I told you about the Jat Princes of Salindrapur in A.D. 409. You have admitted that the Rajputs, Gujjars, and Jats could be Hepthalites who came to India AD 500-640! Why were Jats there before? "

.I have admitted that some Rajputs were Hephthalites.The original Rajputs were however the Aryan Rajayanas of the solar and lunar dynasties who fused with them.Later,the Rajputs incorporated into it's fold Chandellas and many other aboroginal castes as well.By all accounts,Rajput is not a racial term.Everyone knows that..


.I have not admitted that Gujjars are Ephthalites.


.Before 400A.D. the term Jat did not exist.'Getae' ,'Goth','Masagetae' etc. do not equate with Jat.No contemporary scholar subscribes to this point of view...For instance,we don't have the name 'Jat' mentioned anywhere in the MBH,Vedas or other ancient scriptures.Infact before 400A.D. we are hard pressed to find the term 'Jat' mentioned anywhere,in India or outside India.'Jat' is certainly not a racial construct but a caste term created out of the fusion of many different racial strains,including the unions of Rajput Lords and Jat concubines.(Bingley).;some 'Jats' indeed could have been Haphthalits(the red 'read hats with white horns' is an Ephthalite custom)but fact that they are not mentioned in history much before 400A.D. goes against their being Sakas(130B.C.),and more importantly,having a true racial identity.


P.S. Sunny,about Guru Govind Singh and Durga,I am interested in the village legends ,yes.But I am obviously not about to take these stories seriously.My ultimate aim is to understand in greater detail the peasant mentality by learning more about their superstitions.Perhaps you could educate me for a change on this topic.

Regards,

Guru Govindsinghji was a great saint and a warrior. But as a fighter he was not too good. In reality he was a great administrator. A true great son of Bharat. The Jat-Sikh Maharaja Ranjit Singh was truly a great fighter.

Hi XXX, this shows the desperateness and character of MR. Facts! I guess in this case hearsay from an Indian person is OK!

“Thanks Gman for your comments.

Regarding Guru Govind Singh (I have trememdious respect for him),what's the inside scoop on him being a great devotee of Durga(Dasam Granth writings etc. etc.)?--By Inside scoop,I mean any kinds of legends, stories or heresay,whatever.I need as much info. as possible on this topic and on Shiva in general.

Did he promise alligence to this goddess in return for some sort of 'power'?Seems to me the inspiration of 'khalsa' ,'saint soldier','blood sacrifice of punj piares' etc.comes directly from Shiva.Why is the Shiva temples and Sikh Gurudawaras(the most ancient ones) ,even today ,always located together in the SAME compounds,especially in the hill stations ?..Why are the symbols of Shiva(lion symbol),the curved swords,the bangle,blood sacrifice,,even the term 'Singh', etc. all in the Sikh philosophy today.Many politically correct Sikhs will ofcourse deny any conection to Shiva religion but it is all there ,plain as day .

Guru Govind singh basically borrowed his 'warrior ethos' from the cult of Shiva.(your opinion)
..Was the inspiration of Sikhism derived ultimately from the cult of Shiva.?

I think your people are great devotess of shiva also,gman, if I am not mistaken.

Did the Guru actually intend to sacrifice his son/sons to this deity ?Why were his four sons killed ultimately.?Was there a price to be paid,in the deeper meaning of the term?

H.A. Rose talks about these things in volume 3 of his 'Castes and Tribes', briefly..

Your input will be appreciated.--As much detail as possible.

Thanks.”

Hi Facts, Barstow also contends this in 1928. Now, prove ME Wrong!

I told you about the Jat Princes of Salindrapur in A.D. 409. You have admitted that the Rajputs, Gujjars, and Jats could be Hepthalites who came to India AD 500-640! Why were Jats there before? Are they not the Sakas or Kushans who I have both shown to be Getae?

Answer my questions? Any evasion of these questions is proof of your defeat and your failure to accept the truth!

I am waiting. Regards,

Sunny,

A couple of vague comments by McMunn in the 1930's!?--That's the best you can do!? Do you want me to tell you what Mcleod said about Jat origins in 1970!?

Again, following is consensus opinion of contemporary Western scholarship regarding the 'Sakas':

"Nothing is known of the language or race of the Sakas...
They cannot be the same as the Scythians of Europe, though the name and original nomadic life are points in common..About 160 B.C. they were driven southward by the advance of the Yue-Chi from the east.....Sakas denotes (only) the tribe which invaded India 130—140 B.c. " (Encyclopaedia Britannica.)

.

I'm still waiting Sunny !

Hi Facts, do you not believe your own countrymen?:

Satya Shrava, in his work Sakas in India, said, “The Jats are no other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe...a fact now well-known.”

Shrava, Satya, The Sakas in India, Pranava Prakashan, New Delhi, 1981, pp. 2-3.

How about MacMunn in the 1930’s, “…it has been surmised that those who did were later arrivals (to India), of Jat or Scythian origin, outside the normal Aryan fold as later comers to India…”. By the way his use of Scythian or Jat interchangeably throughout his book show that it was well-accepted.

In addition, taking for example, your admission of Rajputs being Hepthalites – the Jats and Gujjars, who as per Smith are also Hepthalites falls short! Why?, there was a Jat ruling dynasty at Salindrapur as early as A.D. 409! Thus we are left with Sakas or Yuezhi! Furthermore, Dhillon and C. Kephart have shown how the Hepthalites or White Huns were most probably a Branch of the Massagetae!

Prove me wrong! Regards,

Old B.,

As usual, you are reduced to speaking gibberish .

Sunny,I'm still waiting!

Hi Bahman Boy,



Unfortunately, your history is how to serve others!

That is the way the cooky crumbles with respect to your unfortunate people.

Best wishes.

Sunny,

I'm still waiting!.

Can you provide us with quotes from MODERN non-Jat,non-Indian Western scholarship showing Jats to be 'Sakas'?

By the way,I can furnish you many quotes from Prof. Michael Witzel(chair of Harvard Sanskrit dept.), Prof. Berrisford(Harvard) etc. to show the Brahmin Aryan history!

Sunny,


You have reproduced these carefully selected 100-150 year old quotes many times before.I am very familiar with their FULL content.You neglect to inform us that all your amateur British ethnologists mantained in the end the Jat origins were a notoriously open question ;in their opinion,it was for future generations to probe and come to a consensus,and rightly so.

That brings me to my next point.
Sunny,it is now time to bring the discussion to a much higher level Sunny.

Can you NOW show us some MODERN day research from non -Jat ,non -Indian scholars linking Jats with 'Sakas'?.By the way,I can furnish MANY modern day sources linking Jats with Roma.


Remember:

."Sakas denotes only the tribe which invaded India 130-140B.C." and "nothing is known of the language or race of the Sakas"(Encyclopaedia Britannica,concensus opinion of modern scholarship.)

.Rajputs are Ephthalites,according to some modern ethnologists.Ephthalites are not 'Sakas' ;they have a different culture,history ,are separated by more than 600 years in the historical timeline,etc. etc.


Good Luck,you will need it!

Hi Facts, you have no legs to stand on:

James Tod wrote:

….a translation of the Nehrwalla conqueror’s inscription, which will prove beyond a doubt that these Jit princes of Salpoori in the Punjab, were the leaders of that very colony of the Yuti from Jaxartes, who in the fifth century A.D., as recorded by De Guignes, crossed the Indus and possessed themselves of the Punjab…their habits have confirmed their Scythic origin…De Guignes, from original authorities, informs us that when the Su invaded the Yueh-Chi or Jats, they found upwards of a hundred cities containing the merchandise of India…The Getae, Jut, or Jat, and Takshac races which occupy places among the thirty-six royal races of India, are all from the region of Sakatai…The transition from pastoral to agricultural pursuits is but short, and the descendents of the nomadic Getae of Transoxiana is now the best husbandman on the plains of Hindustan.

Elphinstone says:

That De Guignes, mentions, on Chinese authorities, the conquest of the country of the Indus by body of Yuchi or Getae, and that there are still Jits on both sides of that river…The account of De Guignes has every appearance of the truth…My conclusion, therefore, is, that the Jats may be of Scythian descent...

Cunningham said, “Perhaps they may be the Iatii of Pliny.” B. Prakash, sayss, “In the wake of their invasion many outlandish tribes such as the Jartas, the Joati of Ptolemy and the Jats of modern times…”.

Both having related the Jats to the Jati of Pliny and Ptolemy, which Torday says are Yuezhi, “…Ptolemy’s Iatioi in the Jaxartes delta, the most likely Greek name for the Yueh-shih.” The clincher is Cunningham’s comment about Yuezhi and Massagetae, “By the Chinese the Kushans were called Ta-Yue-ti, or the “Great Lunar Race” and that is, if “Yue” be taken for the “Moon”. But I incline to take Yue-ti or Gueti, the general name given by the Chinese…And further, I think that as Ta means “Great”, the “Ta-Gweti” must be the Massa-Getae”. This means that the Jats are Getae and Yuezhi!

That is why J.D. Cunningham wrote the following:

“The plains of Upper India, in which the Brahmans and Kshattriyas had developed a peculiar civilization, have been overrun by Persian or Scythic tribes, from the age of Darius and Alexander to that of Babar and Nadir Shah. Particular traces of successive conquerors may yet perhaps be found, but the main features are: 1) the introduction of the Muhammadan creed; and 2) the long antecedent emigration of hordes of Jats from the plains of Upper Asia. It is not necessary to enter into the antiquities of Grecian Getae and Chinese YueChi, to discuss the asserted identity of the peasant Jat…or try to trace the blood of Kadphises in the veins of Ranjit Singh.”

Hi Sunny,

The history of the natives is how to serve others! What an unfortunate and gut( Jut)less people-- Regards.

This got me laughing:

Sunny comment:"Please tell me why Porus carried a SPEAR, a weapon according to native writers as NOT Indian.."

Oooky!...Let's accept this statement as true for a minute.
But wait a minute,Shaka Zulu also carried a spear.He must be a Jat then!Yes,that's it.A spear is uniquly a Jat instrument!--Make's a whole lot of sense.

Typical low-class mumbo-jumbo.

Sunny,

If you want to know more about the Aryan Invasion theory,nay Aryan Invasion Fact, read the DNA results(Journal of Science (2001) ) of Prof. Michael Bamshed and team from the University of Utah.According to these top Western scholars,genetic results show Brahmins are the 'closest to the Europeans .' DNA is the fundamental buildling block of life and denotes a primodial and irrefutable genetic correlation.100% accuracy.It cannot be refuted!Even the Jews living in different Countries of the World today can STILL be identified with DNA results...The old saying'It's in the blood' is wrong.Rather 'it's in the DNA'.!!


But here's the clincher Sunny .You guy's are not even 'Sakas':

Following is the consensus opinion of Western contemporary scholarship regarding 'Sakas's;


"Nothing is known of the language or race of the Sakas...
They cannot be the same as the Scythians of Europe, though the name and original nomadic life are points in common..About 160 B.C. they were driven southward by the advance of the Yue-Chi from the east.....Sakas denotes the tribe which invaded India 130—140 B.c. " (Encyclopaedia Britannica.)

Regards,

P.S.Real history is based upon reputable sources but mumbo-jumbo 'Jat history' relies on the works of Hukam Singh Puria,Dhillon,Mahil and one or two vague sentences from antiquated writers of the 19th Century.I am no doubt 'speaking the ethnological and intellectual truth' Sunny when I say this!

Good Luck and 'muchos gracias vato', as Taj is apt at saying.

Hi Facts, there is no evidence of Aryans in India let alone any Aryan Axe bearer Porus – you are suffering from deliria aren’t you? The present people who claim to be Aryans are afraid of Rats, how could they ever mount an Elephant?! Here the killer – there are NO Indian accounts of the Alexander’s visit, but present Punjabis carry Sikandar as a popular name, why?

Please tell me why Porus carried a SPEAR, a weapon according to native writers as NOT Indian! Why do your own fair-minded natives have little trust in all Indian accounts (except of course if they mention “the evil ones, “the impure ones”, the Shudras, the unknowns, the noseless ones? – basically ANY people that NOT themselves), but only have trust in Diodorus, Arrian, Plutarch and Megasthenes? Are they AWARE of the CHARACTER of YOUR people! Keep trying. Best Wishes,

Sunny,

ref:"I can say with little doubt that the Jats were in India before Alexander’s time and thus they fought for and against him! Now get lost, Regards, "

Sorry Sunny,nobody believes that except Dhillon,Dahiya,Hukam Singh Panwar,XXX and yourself!

Good Luck,

P.S. Porus is 'Pursu' or Son of 'Pursurama',the great Aryan axe bearer.

Hi Facts, I forgot to add your lunatic friend Hukam Singh Parwar says that Jats were in India prior to Alexander; although loses all logic and says Jats were the forefathers of the Scythians! Desperate people go to desperate measures! Regards,

Hi Facts, don’t be too hasty with the time difference my friend…Indian accounts mention many republican tribes in the Punjab area at the time, there were several Saka sun temples in the Punjab area prior to Alexander, Plutarch, Arian, and Diodorus mention about the Indians being very tall, AK Narain claims that the Saka Haumavarka were in India at this time, Chattopradya and Aggarwal say that Sakas were in India prior to their main influx, Woodcock says Greeks were in India prior to their main influx, Tod claims the Mauryas were Takshacs, carnelian beads and raw Indian silk was found in Sakas graves as early as 6th Century B.C. - a trade relationship, etc.

I can say with little doubt that the Jats were in India before Alexander’s time and thus they fought for and against him! Now get lost, Regards,

Mumbo-jumbo history debunked:


In his book,Dhillon first hints that there were 'Sakas' (whome he calls Jats) in the army of King Porus in 320B.C.,about 200 years before they should have been there!....Knowing that he was threading on very shaky ground by making this comment he concludes by saying this:


"Generally, historians regard the beginning of settlements of the Scythians in Punjab after the defeat of the Bactrian Greek rulers by the Scythians (Sakas)."

Thereby contradicting himself!


Good Luck,

Hi XXX,


I mean a REAL timeline,not some low class mumbo-jumbo.

Let's work from the thesis that Jats are 'Sakas'(scythians),for arguments sake:

Example;

Dhillon says:----". This proves very well Dahiya's earlier contention that during the battle between Alexander and Porus Jats fought against each other."


Now old B., how could there have been Jats('Sakas')in Porus's army in INDIA in 320B.C. when the 'sakas' had not even been expelled by the Yue Chi at that time?
Remember,it was not for another 200 years that the first 'Sakas' or more generically 'scythians' came into India, according to the REAL TIMELINE by Western and contemporary scholars.

Good Luck,


P.S. Tell Dhillon to take some elementary lessons.

Hi Bahman Boy,

Here is the timeline of your Dhillon's--

B.C. Description

326 (Early Spring) Crossing of Indus river by Alexander
326 (Nov.-Dec.) Serious wounding of Alexander by the Malli Jats.
325 (late) Departure of Alexander from Sind (near modern Karachi, Pakistan)
317 Total Punjab under Chandragupta Maurya
274 Accession of Asoka (Maurya)
189 Beginning of the Bactrian Greek rule in Punjab under Demetrius
90 Last Bactrian Greek king of Taxila, Punjab, overthrown by the Saka or Scythian Chief Maues or Moga [37] (the modern city of Moga, Punjab probably derives its name
from him).
38 Scythian rule over eastern Punjab after defeating the Greeks of Sakala (modern Sialkot, Punjab)

A.D.

78 Establishment of the Kushan (another Scythian group or clan) empire in India and accession of Kanishka I.
320 Beginning of the Gupta era (Chandragupta I)
400 Chinese pilgrim, Fa-Hien visits Taxila, Punjab
460 White Huns or Ephthalites (another Scythian people) invade north-west India
525 White Huns chief Mihira-gula defeated by a Hindu King
629-45 Chinese pilgrim, Hsuan Tsang in India
712 Arabs invade Sind (presently in Pakistan)
736 Founding of Dhillika (the first city of Delhi probably by the Dhillon Jats)


Please seriouly pay attention to your Zajman's earlier suggestions--- donkeys and moneys are good for you guys!

Best wishes.

Hi XXX,

How are you Old B.,


TIMELINE PROBLEM. This time from Chinese sources first hand:

Let's accept the thesis that Jats are 'sakas',for arguments sake..


By the way,during the time of Porus and Chandragupta Maurya, the 'Sakas' has still not been expelled by the Yue Chi.That took place about 200 years later.

Ref:

Anthony F.P., "Hulsewe in China in Central Asia. The Early Stage: 125 B.C. - A.D. 23" (An Annotated Translation of Chapterrs 61 and 96 of the History of the Former Han Dynasty).

Also consulted: Leiden, E.J. Brill, 1979, pg.. 104-5.


.

"Chinese historical annals refer to the movements of the earliest Sai (Chinese designation for 'Sakas') southwards into Northwestern India following a period of disturbances in Central Asia during the second century B.C.. According to the History of the Former Han (Han shu), covering the period from 205BC to 25 CE: "When, formerly, the Hsiung-nu (Xiongnu)conquered the Yueh-chih 9Yuezhi)the latter moved West and established themselves as masters of Ta Hsia (Da xia or 'big land');it was in these circumstances that the king of the Sai moved south and established himself as master of Chi-pin (Jibin).The Sai tribes split and separated and repeatedly formed several states."(remember they are still NOT even in Bactria at this point in time.!)
"

Here's the clincher;


"The westward migrations of the Yuezhi (see Kushan essay) led to the emigration of the Sai sometime before 128 BCE, when the Han ambassador Zhang Qian arrived in Sogdia and Bactria to make an alliance with the Yuezhi.

At the BEGINNING of the FIRST century BCE, two or possibly three groups of Sakas migrated to India from Central Asia:

a) Sakas from the north (perhaps coming from Khotan) took the 'Pamir routes' through the Karakorum Mountains to Swat and Gandhara;

b) Sakas crossed the Hindu Kush under pressure from the Yuezhi to mountain valleys of northeastern Afghanistan;

c) Sakas coming from the southwest (Sakastan) took control of modern Sindh in southern Pakistan.

Maues was the EARLIEST Indo-Scythian rulers during the early first century BCE
... Numismatic sequences and inscriptions show that Azes followed Maues as the most powerful Indo-Scythian ruler in 58 BCE, a date corresponding to the beginning of the so-called "Vikrama" era, which is still used in India.."


You see Old B.,when your 'sakas' first came into India, Chandragupta had already been dead and cremated for OVER 200 years!Therefore he could not have been a 'Saka'(Jat).


P.S.XXX,haven't you noticed: Dhillon provides NO coherent dates or proper timeline for his mumbo-jumbo 'history'.

I am bored by your simple line of argument.

Hi Kheer Khane,

Here is from your friend Dhillon's book in which he quotes ancient Greek writers:

" During the battle with Porus, Alexander had a substantial number of Scythians or Jats with him. For example, Arrian [23] indicates, "Alexander himself selected the special squadron the companions, ------and the cavalry from Bactria and Sogdiana, the Scythian horsemen (Jats?), with the Dahae (Dahiya Jats), mounted archers----". This proves very well Dahiya's earlier contention that during the battle between Alexander and Porus Jats fought against each other.
Generally, historians regard the beginning of settlements of the Scythians in Punjab after the defeat of the Bactrian Greek rulers by the Scythians (Sakas). "

Remember, what I told many times before--what you guys are good at! -- stick to your rewarding profession!-- your Jat Zajmans are too good for you!

Best wishes.

Sunny,

TIMELINE PROBLEM:


You say that Jats are 'Sakas'.Let's accept your claim for a second,for the sake of argument:--But then we have a huge problem;


.Every Western and Indian scholar informs us that 'Sakas' came into Bactria around 130B.C.(after being expelled by the Yue Chi) and into India only around 90B.C.
On the other hand,Chandragupta Maurya was born around 340-350B.C.(By 322B.C. he was an adult.)That's over a 200 year timeline gap.

You see silly Sunny,when your 'Sakas' first came into Bactria and India ,Chandragupta had long since been dead and comfortably cremated!

Remember, real history is based upon proper scholarship but mumbo-jumbo history is not.

Regards,

Hi Old Boy XXX,


Dhillon says that two Central Asian tribes who are supposed to be the ancestors of the Jats are the Dahae and Massagetae ,on the eastern coast of the Caspian .He says the Dahae are the same people as the Dahas and the modern Dahiya Jats. This is a mere suggestion without any historical proof except the similarity of sound. On the same principle one may hold that the Dahae on the Caspian were a section of the Yadus, who still bear the tribal name of Dashai, and by using the similar sounding name theory of dhillon,easily reducible to Dahai!
This ofcourse is clearly mumbo-jumbo history!

P.S.You see old B.,gold tested in the fire is always purified and creates very little smoke;but wet dung thrown into the same furnace creats lots of smoke, produces a big stetch and ultimately turns into ashes.

Indeed 'where there is smoke there is fire',but in the refinery of life truth is usually to be found in the place where there is no smoke inspite of the fire, just like our gold..I hope you understand what I am telling you as this parable relates directly to Dhillon's mumbo-jumbo.

Regards,

Sunny,
Timeline problem again:

Encyclopaedia Britannica clearly says that 'Scythian' is a generic term .(It's basically like saying 'Shudra' or 'Tartar')But more importantly, the earliest 'Indo-Scythians' in Bactria(let alone India!) were the 'Sakas' around 120-90B.C. That's about 200 years after the death of Chandragupta Maurya!


Britannica:

"INDO-SCYTHIANS, a name commonly given to various tribes from central Asia, who invaded northern India and founded kingdoms there. They comprise the Sakas, the Yue-Chi or Kushans and the Ephthalites or Hunas."

Dhillon's mumbo-jumbo holds no water Sunny.

Sunny,

Here's another timeline---Same problem:

http://www.travel-culture.com/pakistan/history.shtml

90B.C.--Sakas arrive in Bactria,Taxila.


That's 200 years after the death of Chandragupta Maurya.

Sunny,


TIMELINE PROBLEM:

You say that 'Sakas' are Jat.You also say that Chandragupta Maurya was a Jat(ie. Saka).Both cannot be true because of the timeline problem.Chandraguptagupta lived about 200 years before the Sakas first came into contact with India or Bactria etc..

Following is a timeline of Indian history prepared by Prof. Judith Walse of State University of New York.I have only reproduced the partial and relevant timeline below.

http://www.askasia.org/teachers/Instructional_Resources/Materials/Timelines/T_india_1.htm


The History of India:
Timeline (3000 BCE - present)
Prepared by Professor Judith Walsh of the State University of New York, Old Westbury, for the Columbia University Project on Asia in the Core Curriculum. Copyright 1994 by the Trustees of Columbia University in the City of New York.


DATES PERIODS EVENTS
BCE
3000 PREHISTORY


2300 Indus River Civilization
(ca.2300-1750)
Development of urban grain-growing civilization on the Indus River; two main cities are Harappa and Mohenjo Daro:undeciphered proto-Dravidian script;destroyed by environmental pressures, migrations.


1750 Aryan Migration
(ca.1750-1000) Migration into Northwest of India of nomadic herding tribes from Iranian plateau; Indo-European language development; oral religious traditions preserved in Vedas, oldest of which,the Rig Veda, predates migration.


1000


500

Brahmanism
(ca. 900)

Buddhism

Jainism

Early Hinduism characterized by sacrificial rituals, belief in karma and reincarnation, and division of society into four classes (varnas).


326 Invasion of Alexander the Great
Mauryan Empire


(324- 200) Domination of North India by Chandra-gupta, extended to South by grandson, Ashoka


250 Development/Diffusion of Sanskrit Culture Major texts of Hindu tradition take shape: Mahabharata, Ramayana, codification of laws, grammar, science, arts; gods Shiva, Vishnu are major figures; spread of Sanskritic culture to South India.


200 Invasions of North India Invasions by Central Asian tribes. Bactrian Greeks; Sakas; Kushans. (establish dynasty ca. 78-200 CE).


etc.,etc........


Good Luck Sunny,I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.


Regards,

Hi folks,

I made an inadvertant typing error on Dec. 4,7:14a.m. post.I wrote "Chandragupta Maurya finished the job started by them(Parthians) and totally decimated the Sakas."

The educated reader would at once have intrinsically realised that I meant Chandragupta 2 of the Guptas. During the time of Chandragupta Maurya(320B.C.) ofcourse the Sakas were still somewhere in Central Asia.Sakas only came into the picture some 200 years later long after Chandragupta Maurya was dead..

Regards,