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Archive through June 21, 2002

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Here is some information I came across on a little known subject. The silence of regular messengers on these matters is stunning. Hope they react!!!
Paper presented by Prof. George Menachery
at the National Seminar - Calicut University 2002 on
WESTERN IMPACT AND NEW SOCIO-CULTURAL FORMATIONS IN KERALA FROM THE XVI CENTURY:
European Influence on
Church Art and Architecture
of Kerala

1.1.1
What art and architecture is purely indigenous? There is no art or architecture - no socio-cultural formations of any significance, anywhere in the world - relating to a nation, a region, a religious or racial or linguistic group - that is fully local or indigenous. The art and architecture of Kerala - secular or religious - from the sixteenth century onwards is no exception. Thus Church Art and Architecture of Kerala from the commencement of the Christian presence on these coasts at the dawn of the Christian era have been to a greater or lesser degree influenced by those of other nations and religions as they have been influenced by Kerala’s wealth of artistic and architectural traditions. All the nations and cultures that came into contact with Kerala - the Egyptians, the Phoenecians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Arabs (of pagan, Jewish, Christian, and Islamic persuasions), and the Europeans of a later date like the Portuguese, the Dutch, the French, and the English and even other Europeans have all left their mark on the society and culture of Kerala, as has also been the case with mainland Indian groups.

1.1.2
The location of the state [Kerala] on the westwern seaboard, at the centre of the international highway of sea-borne trade connecting the East and the West, [and the North with the South] made it a meeting point of many worlds, a melting pot of races and creeds, from early times.1 The Hindu monarchs and chieftians of the post-Sangam period ruled over a fertile agricultural tract the peace and safety of which were guarenteed by the Western Ghats on the one side and the Arabian sea on the other. The land itself was [for long] a secret shared between the sea and the mountain, an illegitimate child of the two natural forces, protected by and provided for by them in a special way.2 But already we find in the first centuries B.C.E. / C.E. that while the monsoon route connected Muziris (cranganore) directly across the Arabian Sea with cities in the west (e.g. Alexandria, Aden) the West Coastal route gave its ships ready access to the Indus3 and to countries to the North and Northwest in Asia and Europe.4
...2


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1.1.3
It would appear that the impact of her trans-Arabian-sea visitors were much more pronounced in the case of Kerala than that of her mainland neighbours, even during and especially after the Sangam age. This contact with the countries west has paved the way for considerable influence of the societies and cultures of those lands and their peoples on every phase and aspect of the life of the inhabitants of Kerala. Thus from the arrival of Vasco da Gama in 1498 Portugal, the Netherlands, France, and England have had a great deal of influence on the people of Kerala not only in the matter of material cicumstances of life but also in the field of ideas and ideologies. One of the strongest areas where this influence is manifested is in the field of Kerala art and architecture in general and Christian art and architecture of Kerala in particular.

2.1.1
Christian art and architecture in Kerala in the pre-European periods had developed obtaining nourishment from two sources: one, from the countries in the near-east including perhaps Greece, Rome, Egypt and other Middle East countries from which ideas and practices were imported by missionaries and traders, and two, the indigenous forms and techniques of art and architecture that existed in the land.

2.1.2
By a happy mingling of these two streams already by the arrival of the west in Kerala there was existing here a strong tradition of Christian art and architecture which was notable for its aesthetic as well as pragmatic excellence. The Portuguese, the Dutch, the French and the English and also the missionaries from Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium &c. brought with them their own art traditions which resulted in adding certain features to the already existing structures and traditions without trying to or succeeding in totally replacing the cultural heritage of the Christians. Hence today one can see a harmonious blending of the East and the West in the Christian art and architecture of Kerala although examples are not altogether lacking of attempts made to implant certain incongruous elements into Kerala’s cultural formations.

2.1.3
Hence to understand and estimate the quality and quantity of this European influence on Kerala Christian art and architecture it may be best first to analyse the nature of such art and architecture at the coming of the Portuguese in 1498 and thereafter to study the items introduced by various western administrators and missionaries, along with their varieties and spread

...3


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3.1.1
Two pictures are available about the churches and churchbuilding activities of the Christians of Kerala at the beginning and end of the sixteenth century. At one end we have the letters written by the four bishops in 1504.5 At the other end of the century we have the documents of the Synod of Diamper in Malayalam as found in the Kerala churches, in Portuguese in the work of Gouvea6, and in English in the work of Geddes7.

3.2.1
The tale of how Vasco da Gama went into a Hindu temple in Kerala and mistook it for a church and venerated tha idol of Bhagavathi (?) mistaking it for an image of the Blessed Virgin Mary would have clearly illustrated the similarity of the Houses of God in Hinduism and Christianity in Kerala had we any assurance that Gama already knew about the shape of Devalayas in the land from his many spies and scouts.

3.2.2
The description of the reception given to the bishops by the faithful sheds considerable light on the state of the churches, the Christians and their cultural and artistic traditions: “...they were received by the faithful with great joy and they went to meet them with joy, carrying before them the book of the Gospel, the cross, censers, and torches...”8. “And they, the bishops consecrated altars...”9.

3.2.3
In the Synod of Diamper, 1599, there were represented more than a hundred churches of the St. Thomas Christians. This indicates the existence of a very large number of churches already at the coming of the western powers to India. The description of the visits of Archbishop Dom Menezes to various churches before and after the Synod throw some light on the structures and arrangements of the churches before western elements and types were introduced into Malabar.10

4.1.1
There were three striking objects of significance in front of the typical Malabar churches, either inside the courtyard or just outside it: the open-air granite(rock) cross which the present writer has christened Nazraney Sthamba or Flag-staff made of Kerala’s famed teak wood(e.g.at Parur), and often enclosed in copper hoses or paras(as at Changanassery, Pulinkunnu, or Chambakkulam), or made out of some other wood or other material.Stambas or pillars of some type or other are to be found among the Buddists, Jains, Hindus, etc. in India.Such pillars and structures were part of the Christian heritage of Kerala much before the ascendancy of the Vedic Hinduism in these parts , although J.Ferguson did not know or care about these11.

...4


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4.1.2
The ubiquitous cross of Malabar churches is best represented by the rock crosses,mostly outside the churches.The open-air rock-cross of Malabar is an obelisk ,a tall stone column,with four,sometimes decorated,slightly sloping sides.Rome has many obelisks (from Egypt and East, but no cross-bearing structures decorating the piazzas and squares); London has one on the banks of the Thames;Paris has one at the place d’ la concorde; and even New York has one in the central park. Many memorials like the Washington Memorial are obelisk-shaped. The Asoka Pillar and other such Indian pillars were influenced by the Graeco-Parthians,under Egyptian-Persian influence. The Nazraney sthamba is a direct descendant of the obelisk., and much closer to it than the other Indian pillars- in shape,method of constuction and transportaion , method of erection , function, and solar symbolism. “The Roman obelisk,bearing crosses today, have been converted to christianity , while Kerala’s cross-shaped obelisks were born Christian”.The obelus and the double -dagger reference marks in printing may be profitably recalled here. Such obelisk crosses continued to be erected mostly in front of churches even after western ascendancy without much change although a few changes in the motifs on the pedestals etc. could be noticed.

4.1.3
The three-tier gabled indigenous architecture of Kerala churches, which lacked facades until the coming of the Portuguese, immensely gains in richness symmetry, and beauty because of the open-air rockcrosses,some of them more than 30 feet in height including the intricately carved pedestals, and monolithic shafts. No other community in Kerala has such a huge monumental stone structure. The indoor counterparts of these crosses have the earliest carvings in Kerala of the national flower lotus and the national bird peacock. Perhaps even the national animal tiger is first depicted in Kerala art in church sculpture. There was no rock carving in South India prior to the period of these indoor crosses. The motifs, message ,and images on these crosses and their pedestals display a remarkable degree of Indianness and Malayalee Thanima or identity. Vedic Hindu Gods and Goddessess like Ganesha, Vishnu, Shiva, Sapthamathas , Jeshta etc. appear in the art of the central Guruvayoor/Palayoor-Quilon part of Chera country only after the 11th-13th centuries, and even in the Salem-Erode section, and the Trivandrum-Cape Comorin section Vedic Hindu deities appear in art only as late as the 9th century A.D.
...5

4
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.1.4


The base with a socket, the monolithic square and slightly tapering shaft with cylindrical terminals, the horrizontal piece forming the arms with a double(hole) socket in the middle, and the capital with a cylindrical bottom end are the four members of the open air cross.They are so well chiselled and proportionate that when put together the socket and cylinder arrangement enables the cross to stand by itself. However for the bigger crosses,pedestals in the form of sacrificial alters of Ballikallus are found, often carrying exquisite reliefs of the flora and fauna of the land in addition to scenes from daily life and biblical scenes.The cross representing the supreme Bali (sacrifice) or ‘Mahabali’ appearing on the Balikkallu most appropriately represents the Calvary/Bethania events and sheds plenty of light on the ideological ,historial,cultural and technological bent of mind of the forefathers .Compare with the base of the Obelisk of Theodosius,Constantinople,.A.D.390.


4.1.5
The obelisk is a ray of the sun - here a ray of Christ(of Hours -Xt. the sun-God). This ray helps the lotus near - universally depicted on such crosses to blossom forth representing in a typical Indian poetic conceit the grace received by the sin - bound human soul(panka jam) from Christ. Lotus representing the sun is found in other early Indian art also.The half dozen interior Pehlavi inscribed crosses, some of them surely of pre 7th century origin,which were mostly tombstones before they were put up on the altars ,have generally the dove (Holy Spirit) depicted on top of the clover or flowertipped equal-armed Greek cross,in addition to the lotus at the bottom.In this three piece (Thri-kanda) cross one might, perhaps, with considerable effort read the lotus represented Brahma (Father), the flowery cross (Son),
and the dove (Holy Ghost). But the lotus has more universal and more diverse implications in the various eastern creeds.

4.1.6
The arrangement to hold wicks found on the crosses may be related to the preservation of fire ,and the effort to make it available to the common people in the dim past, when Homakundams were rare in Kerala or beyond the reach of the common folk.It is perhaps in connection with the need to preserve fire that the oil-Nerchas and oilAraas of the churches, and the compound -wall rocklamps are to be evaluated.The oil related objects in the churches also indicate the connection of this christianity with the trade of the land,especially oil-trade.The bell like arrangement on some crosses also are noteworthy.Veneration of the cross,angels,Adam and Eve... and of course the Indian Cross itself are some of the religious carvings on these structures.

4.2.1
Dwaja-Sthampa
...6

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The square of polygonal shape of the individual pieces in the granite or rock
lampstands at Kallooppara,Kundra, and Chengannur indicate the antiquity of such

lampstands in the churches.Unlike in the churches ,in the temples ,the tradition of these lamps continued and thus developed in to the present-day round shape of the pieces. In art history generaly the simpler forms make their appearance first , and refinements and complications indicate a later date. Even when the tradition of lampstands declined in the churches, many open-air crosses had wickholders incorporated in to
them, with the advantage that wind and rain do not put off the flames. Church walls still display rows of rock of lamps. Inside the churches the tradition of bronze lamps continued display rows of rock lamps. Inside the churches the tradition of bronze lamps continued vigorously, representing a variety of shapes and types, and some lamps having even hundreds of wickholders, e.g. the Aayiram Aalila lamps at Arthat or Angamaly, Kottekad.

4.2.2
In front of the church the third interesting object is the flagstaff, sometimes covered with copper paras. Every festival is announced with the Kodiyettu or flag-hoisting, a tradition going back to early Buddhist times at least. All these three objects in the courtyard of the church have a variety of liturgical functions associated with them.

4.3.1

Baptismal Fonts

Let us now climb and go across the portico and enter the Haikala or nave beyond the Aanavathil to look at the rock baptismal font in the baptistry.

4.3.2
There are interesting rock baptismal fonts at Edappally, Kanjoor, Mylakkombu, Muthalakkodam, Changanassery, Kothamangalam, Kadamattom etc. The similarity of these baptismal fonts with illustrations of the fonts used for the baptism of Constantine (4thC.) and Clovis (RheimsC.496) is remarkable.

4.3.3
All the old baptismal fonts are of granite or very hard laterite. They are all huge in size indicating that baptism by immersion must have been the order of the day. Most of the old baptismal fonts depicted in the STCEI & the ICHC were probably of a date prior to the decree of the Synod of Diamper which made permanent fonts more or less compulsory. Although most of the old baptismal fonts/ baptistries are found near the west end or middle of the nave on the northern side - Kaduthuruthy(Big), old Edappally, old Kanjoor, Changanassery (Southern side), in many churches, mostly Jacobite/Orthodox
...7

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they are found close to the sanctuary e.g. Angamaly (Middle-church). They are exquisitely carved with reliefs of the baptism of Christ, Mary feeding the Child, angels, Indian

crosses, etc. There are also wonderful motifs of leaves, the basket pattern, coir pattern, etc. engraved on these stones. By the way the very Malayalam word Mammodisakkallu indicates a font made of stone. Another term is mammodisath-thotti. The Holy Water Font is called Annavella Th.-thotti.

4.3.4
The Architraves and doorposts in many churches are good examples of south Indian rock-carving. (e.g.old Kayamkulam, Chengannur, Kanjoor)But the rock-baptismal fonts are the real pride of
many an old church.

4.1.1
Another aspect of church architecture that has scarcely been affected by the later types from abroad is the old three tier gabled wooden roofing with the highest roof for the Madhbaha or Sanctum Sanctorum and the lowest for the Mukhamandapam or portico with the nave or Hykala having a roof of middle height. Although the rock crosses, the flagstaffs, the rock lampstands, the baptismal fonts, and the three tiered roofing pattern have not been much affected by the western visitors and conquerors many of the objects inside the churches and the very appearance of the inside have undergone many changes after the arrival of the Portuguese and other westerners. Let us look at some of these changes.

5.1.1
There is an interesting description of Kerala churches in the account of Joseph the Indian, c.1500. “The Christians have their churches, which are not different from ours, but inside only a cross will be seen. They have no statues of the saints. The churches are vaulted like ours. On the foundation is seen a big cross just as in our place. [May be the open air cross?] They have not any bells.”

5.1.2
There is much truth in the statement of Gerge Varghese: “But once these churches came under the jurisdiction of the Portuguese in the sixteenth century, the ornate monumentality of the European churches was introduced into the small temple-like Syrian Christian churches, which even did not have windows in the early past. The baroque and ornate altars with statues and foliages replaced the Chaldeo-Syrian altars, which were infact only stone-tables with nothing more than candles, Chalice and the Holy Book on them, the bare necessities for observing the Holy Mass. Despite unpleasant frictions with the Portuguese, both in political and ecclesiastical matters, this was the golden era of the Church Art in Kerala. They introduced the Romano-Portuguese style, which was
...8
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assimilated with such artistic and structural finesse by the artists of Kerala, so that it created some of the finest pieces of artistry in the Nazrany school. Later, British also were equally enthusiastic in introducing their skills and forms into the Church Art of Kerala. Hence, from a conservative perspective, the art in these churches may appear...7
eclectic, with diverse traditions, both western and eastern, superimposed one over the other. The exclusively “Asiatic” symbols like stone lamps, flag masts, stone-crosses, arched entrances etc., untouched by the foreign hands, co-exist with the Renaissance frescoes, and the Baroque Art of Europe in the same church-complex. There is, infact, an underlying unity behind this apparently confused juxtaposition of images, symbols and monuments; this is due to the fact that as universal archetypes, images and symbols of religions, both in the west and in the east, have many common elements.”
5.1.3
Among the additions which took place in Kerala churches with the advent of Europeans might be counted paintings and sculptures on a large scale, imposing altarpieces or reredoes; rostrums or pulpits, statues of all sizes, types and shapes; plaster mouldings and pictures; huge bells and belfrys. Murals and frescoes on a very large scale make their appearance as well as paintings on wood panels and clothes. But the most apparent introduction of the Portuguese was the facades they put up between the portico and the nave in order to impart a christian appearance to the churches.

Notes:
1. M. G. S. Narayanan, Cultural Symbiosis in Kerala, Trivandrum, 1972, p.1.
2. Id., p. vii.
3. George Menachery, Kodungallur the..., Kodungallur, 1987, p.4 of 2000 reprint.
4. Id., p.19, n.3 which refers to the many relevant maps in Bjorn Landstrom, The Quest for India, Stockholm, 1964 and in the Atlas section by G.M. in Menachery, George (Ed.), STCEI, I especially maps dealing with the Journeys of St. Thomas, Marco Polo, B. Diaz, F. Xavier, &c.
5. We quote from the edition by Schurhammer, The Malabar Church and Rome, Trichinopoly, 1934 the relevant portion of which is reprinted in the Nazranies (ICHC, I), Ed. G. Menachery, Ollur, 1998, pp. 526-529.
6. Lisbon and Coimbra, 1606.
7. London, 1694; reprinted in Vol. II of Hough, History of Christianity in India, pp.511 - 683; and in Menachery (Ed.), The Nazranies, pp. 31 - 112.
8. Schurhammer, op.cit., p.526, col. 2.
9. Id., ibid.
10. Geddes, op.cit., passim. Visits. to Mangate (Alangad), Cheuree (Chowara), Canhur (Kanjur), Molandurte (Mulanthuruthi), Carturte (Kaduthuruthy), Nagpili (Nagapuzha), Diamper (Udayamperoor), Paru (Parur), are quite illuminative in this respect.
11. Sir James Fergusson, History of Indian and Eastern Architecture, London, 1876. Quoted by Menachery, George, Pallikkalakalum Mattum, Trichur, 1984, p.60.
12. India in 1500 A. D., A. Vallavanthara, Trivandrum, 1984, chs. 4 and 5.
13. Construction of images in the Art of Early Christian Churches-K.George Varghese
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A fresh perspective on the Aryan Invasion - addresses British colonial interests in framing the theory - the arguments for and against the theory and more significantly it's role (or rather limited role!) in shaping Indian history:-

http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/aryan.html

A few days ago I got the opportunity of reading a biography of Guru Nanak. Though much of what I read appealed to me, one particular episode in his life left an even greater impression on me. This was his sojourn at Hardwar during one of his four great journeys to different parts of the world. In the book I read that the pilgrims there were 'throwing' water towards the East which prompted Guru Nanak to 'throw' towards the west. And when questioned as to why he was doing that, he, in turn, asked the pilgrims as why they were doing whatever that they doing. Their answer was that they were offering water to their ancestors in the east.This line 'ancestors in the east' struck me. Ancestors in the east? Could the ritual have some historial basis behind it, I asked myself. Perhaps,a tradition of the ancestors of the North Indians, or at least a substratum of what today form Northern Indians, originating in the east. An oral tradition which in the course of time degenerated into a superstition. It is worth considering and studying, especially in light of what Prof. Devgan and Dr.Sengupta have written.

I speak fluently both Punjabi and Malay and I find that the two languages have many words in common. They, in fact, have more words in common then Punjabi(or, by extension, Hindi) has with Tamil or other Dravidian language (or Malay with Tamil even). While I do agree with scholars that this is largely due to Sanskrit influence upon South East Asia in ancient times(and Middle Eastern influence in later times) I also feel that some, at least, of the words in common may be due to a sharing of a common substratum by both the languages. This substratum I believe to have been the Austric language(in the case of Punjabi, Mundari, and in the case of Malay, Senoi, both of which in ancient times must been even closer to each other than they are now). I don`t understand Senoi or any other Austric language or even any other South East Asian language . So I am not in any position to determine any similarities between Punjabi (or Hindi) and these languages. Perhaps scholars could take a cue from what I have written and look for them .
It is accepted that ancient Indian forays into south east asia were because of a search for gold. Could there be another factor contributing towards it? Like the mere continuation of even earlier exchange of communication between kindred tribes of Austric peoples from North India and south east asia.Or memories of such communication.And could the reason for South-East Asia accepting Sanskritic(or Hindu) culture so easily in those ancient times be due actually to the common substratum of language,race and culture between South East asia(or at least parts of it) and North India? All these are worth looking into and researching.

Latest discoveries reveal the ancient Indus Valley script still being used by the Santhals of Bihar.The Santhals are not Dravidians but belong to the Austric group of peoples, which include also the Khmers, Mons, Senois(of Malaya) and the indigeneous peoples of the Nicobar Islands.These are more Mongoloid than Caucosoid or Negroid.They belong to the South-East Asian type of peoples.Most Indians tend to think the Indus valley civilization to be the work of Dravidians overlooking completely the possibility of Santhal-or Munda, as the entire race is usually called-contribution,just because these today lead a primitive life.Indians must not forget that there are still many Dravidian tribes leading as backward a life as the Santhals-if not more backward. And Indians must also not forget that the Mons and Khmers established magnificant civilizations in parts of South East Asia many centuries ago.And we must not forget that just like the Mayas-and Khmers and Mons- went into backwardness after the collapse of their civilizations so too could have the Mundas.

Thirteen Aryan Invasions of India

The savage Aryans invaded India in 1500 BC and exterminated the indigenous Dravidians. This is confirmed by latest genetic research.
Rama was an Aryan invader who slaughtered millionms of Sudroids.
Krishna carried off thousands of indigenous women and raped them. Ashoka was another monster who
invaded India and anihilated millions of Sudroids. For more info , read

Bible of Aryan Invasions by Uthaya Naidu
http://www.dalitstan.org/books/bibai/

Genocide of Women in Hinduism

Hinduism is the most oppressive in history regarding the mistreatment of women.
No other faith has sati, female infanticide, etc. Read more at

Genocide of Women in Hinduism, by Sita Agarwal,
http://www.dalitstan.org/books/gowh/

The best and most well-researched book on Indian women and Hinduism.

Dear Madan Ji

Please send your modified text to editor@hindustan.net and if possible write the URL which you see on the browser.
It will be overwritten with your original piece.

This is the best way to go. You may send at any time your improved article. You must send your full article and we will place your new text over the older one.

Best regards

To The Editor of this Web

Dear Sir: Is there provision for the author to update his article now existing on this Web. If yes, please tell us the procedure. Thank you

I am writing this as someone genuinely interested in the well being of India and her citizens.

Detente with Muslims appears difficult for Hindus:

Hindus can look at the following options

(1) Mass conversion of Muslims

(2) Push Muslime lock, stock and Barrel into Pakistan.

Before this we can try this option:

(1) Close All Madrasas

(2) Bring enlightenment to Muslims by rational education.

(3) Muslims themselves may understand the unreasonable sections of Hadis and Kuran

(4) Let us give a transition time of twenty years (one generation)

If after twenty years still Muslims continue their old ways the long term solutions will be the ones suggeested earlier. (Danda Neethi) For these options to be executed we would need an autocratic government - communist/military/fascist.

Otherwise India will never never reach her true potenital.

I have read excerpts of 'BIBLE OF ARYAN INVASIONS' by Uthaya Naidu and I am not impressed, let alone convinced.

Instead of focussing on facts, he talks of some sort of 'secret plot' perpetrated allegedly by Brahmins in India over thousands of years!!

Yet Uthaya Naidu gets all his data from Hindu scriptures which have been read and analyzed by billions of people over 1000s of years!! Some Secret!!!

Antime you see someone taking about secret plots and "conspiracy therories', you know right away that they are very short on facts and long on imagination and probably need a designated driver to take them home.

This piece of writing makes for entertaining reading which belongs in the realm of science fiction!!

Editor:
In my recent conversation with American Indians, I felt they are very close to ancient hindu culture. I felt they want to revive their lost culture due to christian invasion and mass murders. If any one knows similarity or connecting word with the Hindu, I will ask to please contact. American Inidan when use their dance or the worship, most of them can not answer why or what it mean to their own folks because of lost mauscript. If they are backed by Hindus litrature they can feel thier selfrespect.- atalnath@yahoo.com

The topic created by Donald: Hateful & Violent Teachings of the Koran and Islam is moved to under the following chapter:
Contribution vs Destruction Manipulation of India by Islamic Invaders
[Please see Manipulation of SouthAsia....]

The Topic British Distortions corrected etc. is moved under:

Modern History of India: Last 500 Years

which has following threads:
European Invadors, Settlers, Traders & Other Real Estate Grabbers
History of East India Trading Company & British Grabbing of India
End of Tyrannical Rule of Islamic Plunderers
Getting Rid of Foreigners, Re-Colonization by Natives
Republic of India - Half Century of A Sleeping Giant


To Readers:
This chapter's title is
Ancient Civilizations: Extensions of Hindustan Vedic Buddhist Age, Aryan Theory

You may create any topics for discussion, debate or talk about related issues.

We suggest that you review other major chapters and threads on History.

Subj: HATEFUL & VIOLENT TEACHINGS OF ISLAM

The Islamic holy book Koran is full of hateful and violent teachings against Non-Moslems; it asks followers to kill and torture the Non-Moslems. For example;

Para 9.5 teaches to kill the Non-Moslems,
Para 9.30 teaches that Jews and Christians resemble the Non-Moslems,
Para 9.69 & Para 45.7-.10 teach torture of the Non-Moslems,
Para 4.91 teaches not to take Non-Moslems as friends, but to slay them,
Para 4.38 teaches men are superior to women.

The above teachings are not only hateful and immoral but also against the criminal code of civilized countries. With these teachings the Islamic followers can not live in peace with followers of other religions. So it is natural to ask the educated thoughtful Moslems: Is all of Koran a gospel truth to Moslems? Are the hateful teachings like the above also considered gospel truth or just errors of writing or interpretation which should be ignored?

To The Editor:
It is appreciated very much that you have decided to cange and put the most recent posting on the top. But please implement it for all the previous postings on this fine forum by changeing their order, otherwise all the recent postings are as good as lost, as they are at the bottom and no one would look at them thinking they are the old ones.

Thank you

Dear Donald

We have taken note of your suggestion.
The boards on history were started much later and most users go to the topics on the top. We are going to create a new user friendly menu for this section shortly.
As per your suggestion we have changed the order of the posts on these boards. We will see how it goes.
From this moment any new post will be placed on the top of the page.

I think the messages here would be easier to read & more meaningful if you put the most recet on the top and the older at the bottom- because the older ones become obsolete with time. Also, now the reader has to look at the old ones again and again, each time he come on. With new ones at the top, the reader would see the only the new ones & immediately, and the old ones only if he wants to refresh. That will make the forum easier to read and more meaningful.

The latest archeological and historic evidence and the emergence of molecular biology clearly show that the Aryan Race theory is false and just a concoction of the Europeans, who have been obsessed for the last several centuries with racism and a superiority complex based on it (See; IDEAS OF RACE IN SCIENCE by Nancy Stepan, Professor, Yale university, USA, 1982). Concoction of the Aryan Race was an attempt by these racists to show that it was only the Europeans who went to different parts of the world and developed all the civilization there. However, this is changing. Mr. David Frawley, who is a well known authority on the suject and has written many books and articles, describes the current situation on the suject in the following article:

INDIAN HISTORY REVISITED by David Frawley (Posted Nov 30, 1998 at: http://www.hotboards.com/powerforum/pwrforum.exe?who=indiabooksforum)

Most people in India today have been led to believe that the Vedic Aryans were the first invaders of the country. They have been the image of the Aryan hordes pouring down the passes of Afghanistan on horseback, destroying the indigenous urban Harappan culture that was Dravidian in nature. Even Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru subscribed to this view and it remains in textbooks in India today.

That there was no record of such an event in ancient Indian records, north or south, was ignored. That this theory never managed to prove itself was disregarded.

Recently, however, the Aryan invasion idea is becoming rejected worldwide in light of new archaeological evidence that contradicts it. However, Indian secular and Leftist thinkers like to denigrate any questioning of the invasion theory as Hindu fundamentalist propaganda.

A recent academic paper (see below) argues that there is an indigenous development of
civilisation in India going back to at least 6000 BCE (Mehrgarh). It proposes that the great Harappan or Indus Valley urban culture (2600-1900 BCE), centred on the Saraswati river of Vedic fame, had much in common with Vedic literary accounts. It states that the Harappan culture came to an end not because of outside invaders but owing to environmental changes, most important of which was the drying up of the Saraswati. It argues further that the movement of populations away from the Saraswati to the Ganges, after the Saraswati dried up (c 1900 BCE), was reflected in the literature with Vedic Saraswati based literature giving way to Puranic texts extolling the Ganga. Perhaps more shockingly, the paper states that the Aryan invasion theory reflects colonialism and Eurocentrism and is quite out of date.
Note the conclusion:

"That the archaeological record and ancient oral and literate traditions of south Asia are now converging has significant implications for regional cultural history. A few scholars have proposed that there is nothing in the 'literature' firmly placing the Indo-Aryans outside of south Asia, and now the archaeological record is confirming this. We reject most strongly the simplistic historical interpretations, which date back to the eighteenth century, that continue to be imposed on south Asian culture history. These still prevailing interpretations are significantly diminished by European ethnocentrism, colonialism, racism, and anti-semitism. Surely, as south Asian studies approach the twenty-first century, it is time to describe emerging data objectively rather than perpetuate interpretations without regard to the data archaeologists have worked so hard to reveal."

Is this the statement of a Hindutva fanatic? No, it is by a noted Western archaeologist specialising in ancient India, James Schaffer of Case Western University (USA) as part of his new article, 'Migration, Philology and South Asian Archaeology', soon to appear in Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and History, edited by Bronkhorst and Deshpande, University of
Michigan Press.

The Aryan invasion theory, as Schaffer notes, arose from a Eurocentric view that was hostile to an Indic basis for Western civilisation or peoples. The discovery of close affinities between the Indo-European languages in the eighteenth century required an explanation. By placing the original Aryans in Europe, who later migrated to India where they got absorbed by the indigenous population, it took away any need to connect the ancient Europeans with India, which was not pleasing to the colonial mindset. The theory eventually developed an anti-semetic tone. It was used to trace Western culture not to the Jews and their Biblical accounts but to a proposed European homeland dominated by Nordic peoples. Thus the invasion theory became one of the pillars for Nazi historians, yet strangely the Communists in India have become strong supporters of the theory and accuse those who question it of being fascists!

Archaeologist Mark Kenoyer of the University of Wisconsin, who is in charge of the Indus Valley display that is touring American museums, has similar views as related in an article on the 'Indus Valley: Secrets of a Civilisation' in Wisconsin Fall 1998:

"If previous scholars were wrong about the origin of the Indus people, they also missed the boat when it came to explaining their downfall, which they attributed to an invasion by Indo-Aryan speaking Vedic tribes from the northwest." This theory has now been ruled out by the lack of archaeological evidence. Instead, says Kenoyer, "it's likely that the rivers dried up and shifted their courses, altering
trade routes and undermining the economy."

Kenoyer is also now arguing that the Indus script can be traced to 3300 BCE, making it as old as Sumerian records of writing.

The skeletal record confirms that same data as archaeology as Kenneth Kennedy notes in 'Have Aryans Been Identified in the Prehistoric Skeletal Record from South Asia' appearing in The Indo-Aryans of South Asia (Walter de Gruyter 1995). No such Aryan skeletons have ever been found as different from
indigenous ethnic groups.

"All prehistoric human remains recovered from the Indian subcontinent are phenotypically identifiable as south Asians. Furthermore their biological continuity with living peoples of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and the border regions is well established across time and space. Assumptions that blondism, blue-grey
eyes and light skin pigmentation are physical hallmarks of either ancient Aryans or of members of brahmin and other social groups in modern south Asia, find their origins in the improper marriage of excerpts from Vedic texts with nineteenth century Germanic nationalistic writings."

Most archaeologists in India like B B Lal, S P Gupta or S R Rao have argued similar points for several years. At a recent conference in Los Angeles in August, sponsored by the World Association for Vedic Studies (WAVES), Lal argued convincingly the same points in an excellent paper called the 'Myth of the Aryan Invasion: Some Reflections on the Authorship of the Harappan Culture'. Unfortunately, Indian Leftists called B B Lal's recent book The Oldest Civilisation in South Asia as "academically weak and unscholarly," though he is only relating the implications of the latest archaeology. How many of these people ever read Lal's book or the related archaeological studies is debatable.

Yet even a Communist historian in India like Romila Thapar, who previously endorsed the invasion theory has been forced to backtrack and no longer emphasises it. She recently notes in a Frontline interview:

"Introducing archaeological data into historical studies also forces historians to think along interdisciplinary lines. The decline of the Indus cities is attributed to a range of causes, of which ecological change is among the major ones." The Aryan invasion theory has been used to promote various political agendas. British, Communist, Dravidian and Dalit groups have all used it to their
advantage, as have Muslim and Christian missionaries portraying the invading Aryans as the bad guys and the invasion as the source of all social, political and religious problems in the country. No other theory of ancient history has been used for so much modern political and religious mileage. That such groups are blaming Hindus for politicising the issue now that it is turning against them is only hypocrisy.
Regardless of one's political views, the Aryan invasion theory is falling into the dustbin of history. India as a civilisation has as much continuity both in terms of its ethnic groups and its literary record. In fact a new claim for India as the cradle of civilisation may be possible with further archaeological finds. Rather than a history of invasions, there is an indigenous development of a civilisation with distinctive features that can be traced back to the beginnings of agriculture and cattle rearing in the region. A great history is there that needs to be reclaimed and reinterpreted as an integral whole. A new history of India needs to be written that recognises this monumental heritage. A good place to start improving and
Indianising the educational system in the country would be to correct this misconception which puts the entire history of the region on a wrong foundation.

Glad to note the concilliatory tone in Anonymous about granting reservations to women. In the beginning, as it happens, a few liberated women will enjoy the fruits of such a reservation more than their less fortunate sisters. The law should be made so that keeping the total percentage of reservation as same, reservation should be applied only for weaker sections amongst women based on income criteria, divorcee, widow with children etc. Probably sociologists will be able to identify this class of persons. Then over a period of time, this will even out, as it has happened in case of SC/STs. Today nobody dare to talk ill about either Ambedkar or Dalits (Even if they be true) because dalits have become so strong that they can take the whole society into ransom. I am not saying whether it is right or wrong. But that is the fact. However, if the same thing happens about women reservation, then it is good. Because in every society men and women live together. Hence unlike in the case of caste conflict, If a women comes up in life, she will bring up her family also which include male members of the family as well.

On the question of differences between genders, I agree that certain professions favour one gender over the other. That can be easily handled by making an exception and nobody objects about that. (Like nobody wants the job of Chief of armed forces reserved to SC/ST even though he is not fit for it.)
Further, by conceding to logic, anonymous has proved that he is not a vithanda vadi and hence no need for any explanation.

Dear Liberal,
My sincere apologies if my letter conveyed the meaning that only men can indulge in vices and not women. Smoking, drinking and other vices are bad for everybody. But it so happened in India that, women traditionally abstained from such vices. But lately, in the guise of competing against men, they have taken up such vices. That is what I was disappointed about. I would certainly be agitated whether my son or daughter took up vices to feel liberated.
Coming back to 'reservations to women', I concede that it might help uplifting women, but care should be taken to see that the 'reserved' posts are not grabbed by women who are already 'liberated'. That would defeat the purpose (as I quoted the example of 'reservations' for SC/STs which is being grossly misused by 'rich and lazy' SC/STs. Also, there are certain fields, where men can fare better than women, the quality would certainly decrease if women are pushed up to such posts in the guise of competing against men. You need to understand that men are physically and mentally suited for certain jobs ...
Also, please explain the meaning of 'vithanda vadi'. How do I qualify to be one?

The Anonymous is like sophists or like vithanda Vadis. He doesnot know how to bring women into main stream. And he doesnot agree if a solution like reserving women seats in parliament and in the government is suggested. Vices like smoking, drinking etc have nothing to do with gender. if it is bad for women, it is bad for men as well. A woman is not only a mother, but also a daughter. If the father and brothers indulge in smoking, drinking etc, why the daughter will abstain from it. If the son can do it, then why not the daughter. Allowing the same moral and yardstick is the real equality. If we can tolerate bad behaviour from the son then we should also LEARN to tolerate bad behaviour from the daughter. Then only the real equality comes. Then only people will try to control both sons and daughters through their own behaviour or through legislation. Otherwise this talk of equality is all a crap.

The only solution is to grant equality to both genders perse in the first instance in every aspect and set yourself as an example. yes in the process we may have to see a lot of so called bad habits by women. The very fact that anonymous is worried about the bad habits of women more than that of the men is an indication of his intolerance. We have to come out of that intolerance first. Whether an act is bad or good is not determined by who is doing it, but by the result of such indulgence. Thus if you donot want your mothers and daughters to smoke and drink, then donot allow that in your father & sons as well. That means bring in Prohibition and other rules. Does the government has any such guts. If not all this talk of morality and equality will be only hypocrasy.
But I am sure giving women power through legislation will go a long way in the emanicipation of women. If there is one female corrupt Lalitha naik, There are hundreds of male corrution politicians. These are not gender dependant. But the ultimate result is that both men and women shall have the same rights, morals and yardsticks and this can be done only if they are adequately represented in the law making machinery. I agree that Law alone will not bring equality. But that is not a reason to make the law itself as biased so that it gives a freehand to opportunists to persecute the females without the fear of law. Female reservation is a must. The reservation for SC/ST has really helped in controlling atrocities on them. If they are being misused then it is a different problem, which ahs to be addressed through controlling measures. But basically, it has contributed a lot in realising the intended purpose of such a law to a very large extent.

To Archana,
A few points and questions:
Do you think by 'reserving' a few posts in the panchayat or whereever, the condition of women will improve? Will women suddenly become qualified to hold an important post just because it is reserved for them? Are you seeing the ill effects of reservations to 'SC/STs' in India? I am definitely on the side to bring women into the mainstream of life, but I am not sure how to go about accomplishing it.
Yes, in India, a woman was regarded as mother and respected. Let me tell you an incident which happened in Karnataka state. The minister for culture (or whatever) is Lalitha Naik (a woman). She and her family secretely swindled (stole in other words), lakhs of rupees which was meant to be used for the upliftment of 'Lambani' (tribal) women. A case of a educated women (a minister) cheating other uneducated women. I was shocked to read this.
Also, in the cities I observe more and more girls who have taken up smoking and drinking liquor and doing other acts. Liberation must not mean this. To be regarded as a 'mother' the woman must be worthy of it. You have to command respect, not demand it.
Do you have any particular ideas as to how to bring the women of India (both rural and semi-urban) into the main stream ?
Your answers will be read by many readers and might share it with others and who knows, might even start a revolution. A pen is mightier than a sword

Anonymous May 24
I don't have to goto distant villages to view women there. i have come from that background! I agree with you the conditions of women is still bad as compared to the modern city women. But that was not my point at all. All I want to say is that I am happy that the condition of women is improving. Women are progressing in field of education, health, arts etc. I am happy that the Bill for reservation for women in Panchayat is coming which will aid the improvement of rural women.
I don't believe that women were slaves in ancient times(by what I mean vedictimes - the examples I had given) It is said, "Yatra naryastu pujante Ramante tatra devata". Which means "where a woman is respected prospority stays there". Women were respected the most in the form of mother.

To Archana,
I am glad that you have a deeper knowledge of Indian religious history. You have mentioned names like Gargi, Maitreyi etc. These women hailed from cities and definitely came from educated families. The other women at that time who lived in villages and did not have access to schools etc. did live like 'slaves' (to quote from you) just like the women living in villages in morern times. The majority of the women living in cities (who though form a small percentage compared to the sum total) are educated and cannot be classified as being down trodden or 'slaves'. So, until you visit the distant villages and study the condition of women there, you will not get a true picture. You will be under the false impression that women are competing equally like men just by having a 'city view'.

I want to know whether in Mohanjodaro and Harappa age-- something akin to trade marks or property mark was present.
Thank you

The women of ancient times had equal rights as men for education and work. There are examples of telented women as Gargi and Maitreyi! Infact there was a debate between Adi Shankaracharya and Saraswati (Mandanmishra's wife) that lasted for 21 days. I wonder what exactly happened in history that made women so weak and made their life like slavery. Is good thing that women once more are joining hand in hand with men for all kind of works!

Mr Shafique's knowledge and motive is hearted but there are few points I won't agree with Mr. Shafique and Mr. Nadeem
>>Aryans were Nomadic,uncultured people.Their economic bases was animal domestication.They did not know anything about agriculture. Except the precursor language of Sanskrit and the castism that followed later they gave nothing to India.
>>They can be compared with Barbarians of Central Europe
Aryans were civilised. If you consider Sanskrit as their language then do you know how much literature the language has produced over centuries. 4 vedas+4 upavedas+6 darshans+ 18 Purans +2 mahakayas.... A person can not study even half of it in his lifelime. Do you believe an uncultured tribe giving such kind of knowledge? By the way in this literature there is plenty of information about certain trees and values and human values of compassion and love. The author says "buddha(Tom se ma jyotirmoy)" is totally wrong. 'Tmamso ma Jotigamaya, Asato ma satgamaya....' is a prayer in Rug Veda and has nothing to do with Buddha.
The cast system was not originally by birth. All work(on which cast is based) was equally important. There are examples people born in low cast reached into high cast (valmiki/Aytareya etc). The cast system by birth was brought by a certain selfish people of society which prevailed a long time.
>>war of Mahabharata was fought around 1200 B.C. The epic of Mahabharata was complied over many centuries after the actual war was fought somewhere near 400 B.C by Ved Byas Muni.Till that time Mahabharata remained in the form of tribal tails.
This person has not read Mahabharat and talking about its compilation. Ved Byas Muni is a part of Mahabharata. He was the one from whom the kings Pandu and Dhrutarashtra born. The final war with ashwathama ended in his hermitage. Are you saying he composed it after 800 years?
In India we see a mixture of Aryan and Drvidian culture. If you see customs and tranditions in south and north India, you can notice that.
I agree with many facts Mr. Shafique points out like 'Hindu religion is not a monotheistic religion'. '.This religion evolved over centuries and is still evolving.' And I support him.

Mr. Shafique Ul Islam has all the facts about Mahabhaarata wrong. He also mentions Arayan invasion to India which is now known to be a bogus theory of colonialists.

He means well, but needs to educate himself a lot.

I would like to know Shafique Ul Islam Email. As muslim I think such writer should be incouraged by other communities. This way muslims will be way from fanatisism and save muslim religion from taken over by fanatics. I wonder he is still alive in pakistan or he lives outside. -atalnath@yahoo.com

Taken from Pakistan Forum
Written by Mr. Shafique ul Islam


Critique der Essay on Hinduism...Tahir Nadeem,
Posted By: Shafique ul Islam Monday, 1 March 1999, at 1:00 a.m.


Even the scholars on this subject would not dare write the way Mr.Nadeem has written;therefore your complete lack of knowledge and ignorance on hinduism and hindu religion is forgivable.

From your essay it seems that you do not understand the difference between hinduism and hindu religion and then you are mixing it with castism-the end result is NADEEM'S MIXTURE/COCKTAIL.Give it to any new born Pakistani to drink.He would develope into full blown Jamil,ASQ,Mumtaz Hussain and Dr.Avtar Singh Machaki,etcetra etcetra,in short ,a true hindu hater,a true Indian hater and A TRUE PAKISTANI or a TRUE KHALISTANI.

This is what you want with your COCKTAIL to happen.

Ignorance,lack of knowledge is forgivable,but what can never be forgiven is unwillingness to learn , grow and assimilate the ground realities,Mr.Nadeem !!

I am ardent student of History,beside my profession.I see lot of sick people with thought disorders on daily basis and do come across people who have similar problems(here I want to refrain from saying "the people with similar problems as yours" for I dont want to be impolite).

Actually your essay doesnt deserve a response,but since you have posed/pretended to have dealt this problem at scholarly level I decided to write few lines.

I am trying to be very precise and to the point as much as possible.

To start with;
The references you have given are people with no credentials on this subject.Actually you have written your critque based upon their "Critique" without going into the depth of the subject matter.I will prove it in the followings.

First of the very fact you are ignorant of, is that precursor of hindu religion/practices existed in Indus/Sarasvati valley long before Aryans came e.g the worship of prototype of Bull/Ox,Shiva like diety,worship of prototype "Ling"(Penis) like structure exisited in pre-Aryan culture i.e Civilisation of Mohanjodaro and Harappa.The language of that period is yet to be deciphered and thus still a mystery.
But language named "Burhi" still being spoken in Sindh,Pakistan, has philological affinity with Southern Indian Dravidian languages and it falls in the same family of languages.There is consensus amongst scholars based upon philological datas that creators of Mohenjodaro-Harappa are present day Dravidians.The name has been changed from from Indus Valley Civillisation to Sarasvati Valley civillisation based upon latest Sattelite Imagery/datas on the dried bed of Sarasvati river which merges with Indus river in Run of Kuch/Gujrat,and adjacent parts in Pakistan.Sarasvati River originates from foothills of Himalayas near Ambala/Kalka/Chandigarh(India).This river because of extensive silting has almost become extinct.But recent sattelite imagery showed that it goes up to Run of Kucch and then into Pakistan finally merging with Indus river before pouring in Arabian Sea.The whole civillisation of Mohanjodaro-and Harappa was on the banks of the these two great rivers and the plain between these two rivers i.e from Karnal, Ambala/wherefrom Nawaz Sharif hails/,Kurali,Ropar,whole of the west punjab up to Run of Kucch comprised Sarasvati/Indus valley civillisation.I am drifting the whole subject;let me concentrate on your essay.

Aryans started comming around 1800 B.C and the war of Mahabharata was fought around 1200 B.C. The epic of Mahabharata was complied over many centuries after the actual war was fought somewhere near 400 B.C by Ved Byas Muni.Till that time Mahabharata remained in the form of tribal tails.

Aryans were Nomadic,uncultured people.Their economic bases was animal domestication.They did not know anything about agriculture.They were fleeing from central Asia because of pressure of changes in climatic conditions and on going migrations at that time.The pastures of central Asia were drying at that time.They can be compared with Barbarians of Central Europe who destroyed Roman empire between 350-480 A.D
I cant go into details because of time factor,you need to read on these subjects if you want to really know rather than picking things selectively from here and there to satisfy self ego and distorted view point.

The second fact which you seem to have no clue is that War of Mahabharata was the final victory and establishment of Aryan supermacy over Dravidians or descendents of Indus valley civillisation
I dont have time to go into details beyond this.

The third fact which you seem to be completely blackened out is that Castism has nothing to do with Hinduism or Hindu religion.It actually is ancient racism having its origin in victory of Aryans over the aboriginals followed by their oppression and subjugation and perpetuation of this system in the form of castism.Since Aryans were Victorious they used pre-existing precursor form of hinduism and hindu religious practices to ideologise/rationalise the system of injustice ,oppression of locals and supermacy of Brahminical orders which prevails till date.In fact its storey of India from Primitive commune stage to tribalism then to modern slavery of present day cyber-age.

Mr.Nadeem you should know that Aryans did not come to India with hinduism or hindu religion,though they spoke something precursor of Sanskrit.They were tribal people with nomadic culture.The creators of Induas/Sarasvati valley civillisation were very learned and advance people having trade relations with Arabs, Masopotemians,Sumerians and Egyptians etc.Their City planning,sanitation,architecture,preservation of grains,ornaments was par-excellence when compared to other contemporary societies.
In fact Aryans got aborbed into mainstream of social life already prevailing in the plain between Indus and Ganges.Except the precursor language of Sanskrit and the castism that followed later they gave nothing to India.

The fourth fact that you need to know is that Hindu religion is not a monotheistic religion.There is no single founder,there is no single book governing the whole life of the individual, there is no single god in this religion.Hindu religion was not founded in single day or already said ,by single individual.This religion evolved over centuries and is still evolving.Unlike other religions its vanues are open for new thoughts,ideas,revelations, discoveries in nature,advancement in science and technology.

You need to see growth and evolution of other reform movements in ancient and medeavel India and later their transformation into crude religions/Budhism,Jainism,Sikhism etc/ in the light of challenges to traditional hindusism/religious practices,Castism and Brahminical order in this country.The people who challenged this Brahminical order were Budha(Tom se ma jyotirmoy,Budha sharnam gacchami),Mahavira,Ashoka(Stya Meva Jayate) The Great,Harshavardhana of Thaneshwar,Guru Nanak later Raja Ram Mohan Roy and many others.Unlike Aurenghjeb who understood only the language of Sword these people challenged Brahminical supermacy by influencing the minds of the people.

Dont misuderstand me that I am proponent of Hindu religions.But since your thought system has wrong foundations/infact no foundations/ and since I saw some body with intellectual leanings I could not resist my temptations to sow seeds so that flowers of different colors,thoughts may grow.

Shafique ul Islam